Garbage Fee
Monday, May 01 2006 @ 11:33 AM MDT
Contributed by: Jim B.
Cheryl, I took part in the citizens academy, and would recommend it to anyone interested in learning more about how our city operates. It is true that Mr. Wollangk told us about the proposed garbage fee. He was in the middle of going through the new budget, and he presented it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Some in the class asked some very good questions about options, but they were all shot down by Mr. Wollangk (almost before he heard them).
I have a couple of observations about this fee and the seemingly rhetoric coming from our city Manager. I live on a street that has a perpinducular street running into it on the East side. I watch the garbage men every garbage day come down my street, get to the end, then back up to the perpindicular street. They have obviously been doing this for years because the guy who picks up the actual cans takes off running toward the street before the driver even starts backing up. If they can back up like this, why can't they do it in condo complexes? Another issue I have is the garbage men themselves are in such a hurry, that they neglect to notice or pick up garbage they have dropped on the streets. Almost every garbage day my street is littered with garbage from their doing. This drives me crazy, and I have called the sanitiation department several times to lodge a complaint. What is their hurry? I have seen it mentioned on other threads, but do they get off early if they get done early? That just doesn't seem right if they are continually creating a mess!
Jim B.
[following are responses to the above post as they originally appeared on an earlier version of Eye on Oshkosh]
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Tuesday, May 02 2006 @ 10:53 AM MDT
Yes Jim you are correct. They rush through their routes and then are able to leave for the day...often after much less than a standard 8 hour shift. I have heard some of the reasons for this, but in my opinion they don't hold water. All workers (city and private sector) should be held accountable. If they finish their route early, I have to believe there is something else that could be done with their skilled costly labor.Mr. Wollangk need to start supporting the citizens of Oshkosh. Too many of the administrators and department managers seem to be intimidated by the unions. Maybe that is because if the Union ranks get large raises in wage and benefits, it only goes that the department managers and administrators will also receive premimum increases.The waste, odd working schedules, duplication of services, un-accountability need to be addressed. Our elected council members need to push for this.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: DBCooper on Tuesday, May 02 2006 @ 09:12 PM MDT
Several of us have commented earlier on the incentive system used by the sanitation department.MJS, the routes are designed for 8 hours of work at a 100% pace. There are industry recognized standards for this. The people are working at a pace of 125% if they get finished in 6 hours instead of 8, and they are being paid for 8 hours. What you are asking for is 10 hours of work in 8 hours, for 8 hours pay. It will never happen! They will make the 8 hours of work last 8 hours. It's been happening since incentive systems were invented, regardless of the industry.Clearly, if employees are leaving a mess behind, this is wrong and should not be tolerated.I'm more or less in favor of the incentive system, PROVIDED the entire job gets done! My problem with the incentive system is the safety of the people. Getting done faster is one thing, but at the pace these people are working it's only a matter of time before somebody steps into traffic without looking or thinking, somebody has the truck in gear and steps on the throttle when somebody else is in the way, somebody backs up when somebody else isn't clear, etc. The steps the workers ride on are not supposed to be used above 10mph or for more than .2 miles at any one time. How many times do we see that abused? They can be KILLED for not following these rules! Picking up garbage bags while riding on the step and heaving it into the hopper is an invitation to an arm or shoulder muscle or joint injury.There is a complete treatise on garbage truck safety here including accident reports: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/refuse.html
What it comes down to is the city has implemented this incentive plan. Fine. But, abuses of all kinds are occuring with it, and instead of having managers managing the people and the problems, they appear to just let them run rampant. Remember that when accidents occur to refuse workers, no matter how minor the injury, WE pay for them!Back to Jim B's problem of leftover garbage. The city unveiled it's new website last week. It would be nice to see web based message boards for each department, where you could lodge a "complaint" like yours. (As far as that goes, it could be for suggestions also, not just complaints). More importantly, it would be nice to see somebody from the city answer it in a timely fashion. Even a "Dear JimB, we looked into your concern and it appears that the wind blew this trash around, so there is nothing we can do" is better than no answer at all, right?
To the subject of backing down alleys now. The US government instituted the CDL (commercial drivers license) in 1996. Without getting into all of the details of it, anybody who drives a class 8 refuse truck in the city of Oshkosh (and they are all class 8's) needs to have a Class A CDL, with no "endorsements". See pages 98-100 of this pdf file: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/docs/cdl-vol1.pdf
These pages detail the Basic Vehicle Control Skills Test. Wisconsin examiners use the "straight line" and "curved path" (alley dock) backing maneuvers during the test. In order to be be issued a Class A CDL in Wisconsin, you need to be able to back up a large truck! The decision to not pick up in alleys because it was "unsafe" is just another example of poor management on the part of the city. The many known unsafe conditions that I outlined above, they turn a blind eye to. A skill required during the driving test that their employees take, that hundreds of thousands of truck drivers do every day, THAT they deem to be unsafe...
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 06:56 AM MDT
NO! to the message boards. They would turn into nothing more than blogs of people dropping insults, much like blogs online have a tendency to become.If you have a complaint against a city employee or department, pick up the phone! Call the department head and advise him/her of your concern! If that doesn't suit your fancy, send an e-mail! All of the department heads' e-mails should be listed, and you can drop them a line that way.We do not need a public flogging forum to air our dirty laundry when it comes to problems we have with city departments. There are appropriate means to voice concerns, DB, but your suggestion is not the correct one, in my opinion.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 08:59 AM MDT
"......Authored by: oshwi324 on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 06:56 AM MDT "NO! to the message boards. We do not need a public flogging forum to air our dirty laundry when it comes to problems we have with city departments...."
I think it is a good thing to be open. If there is any "Dirty Laundry" let it receive the light of day. That and a little bleach and it might be cleaned up!:)
Garbage Fee
Authored by: DBCooper on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 11:23 AM MDT
Oh, but we DO need a public forum for lodging complaints!The originator of this thread has stated that he HAS contacted the responsible department and gotten nowhere. That is because the city can just sweep it under the rug, act like they lost it, whatever, instead of providing real customer service to us the customers!
Garbage Fee
Authored by: Jim B. on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 11:48 AM MDT
DB,My complaints and feedback have always been handled with good manners and a positive attitude by the people I have talked to at the sanitation department. However, I have never had any follow up to my questions and complaints(not that I was expecting any) on this particular issue. I have had in the past follow up from the department head when I complained about city a truck driver(non garbage) throwing out his garbage on my street. The head of the department called me back twice to verify information and was adamant that the person in question was dealt with accordingly. I am still amazed that a city worker would think it is appropriate to throw his garbage out of his truck on a city street! My personal feeling about listening to Mr. Wollangk many times during the city academy was he had the, "you don't know because you are just a citizen" attitude. He is a very nice guy with a good sense of humor, and I think knows how to do his job, but it always seemed like, "just let the professional handle this" attitude. We couldnt possibly understand the complexities of these matters being just citizens!
Jim B.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: Thedog on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 04:37 PM MDT
Jim B. I agree with 100% in reguards to out city managers attitude.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 09:04 AM MDT
......MJS, the routes are designed for 8 hours of work at a 100% pace. There are industry recognized standards for this. The people are working at a pace of 125% if they get finished in 6 hours instead of 8, and they are being paid for 8 hours. What you are asking for is 10 hours of work in 8 hours, for 8 hours pay. It will never happen! They will make the 8 hours of work last 8 hours. It's been happening since incentive systems were invented, regardless of the industry. Interesting. Please share more information regarding this INDUSTRY STANDARD. And how the incentive system came about, what the standards are for a community like Oshkosh,are any other cities in our area using the same incentive system, who monitors the success, etc etc. Sounds like one heck of a benefit for the workers...whats the benefit to the city and taxpayers??
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 09:58 PM MDT
The benefit is that your garbage gets picked up every week. WHO CARES if they can do it in 6 hours or 8? As long as it gets picked up, WHO CARES? If you want it to take 8 hours, they will make it take 8 hours. Are we trying to invent things to complain about here, or do you have a legitimate gripe?
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:19 AM MDT
Regarding the hourly incentive plan.It's not the way the world works in general. Good or bad it is just different. When things are not the "norm" they tend to be looked at with a sceptical view. So...this type of arrangement leaves itself open to criticism and you or city management better be able to defend the desision, not just say "the work gets done so shut up and don't complain" sorry, that doesn't cut it.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 11:39 AM MDT
But come on, it's garbage pickup. Other than leaving a mess, which has been complained about and should be taken of, as long as they get the job done, I don't really care how long it takes.There are other jobs that work under the same principle. Construction is a great example. Those guys don't get paid by the hour, they get paid by the job. Shingle a house for $2000. Great! I don't care if it takes you 2 days or 2 weeks, you get 2 grand either way.Garbage pickup is viewed as the same thing. Seriously, who wants this job anyways? If they can do it more efficiently and get out of work a little sooner, I certainly don't care.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:28 PM MDT
you have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.I'm just looking at the metrics of it.Officially, how are they listed as being compensated in the Union contract? By the hour? By the day? I would submit if the contract says HOURLY, and based on a standard 8 hour work day, then thats what should be worked.If the contract is written differently, well then produce it and justify the "by day" position you're taking.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 02:13 PM MDT
You're nitpicking a little, aren't you? Is your garbage not picked up to your satisfaction? Obviously not. I don't understand what the big deal is. MJS, you are obviously someone who is down on city government and you're going to find something to complain about no matter what.For the record, I tried to get into the city's website to research the contract, but the link is broken.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: chzhead on Friday, May 05 2006 @ 06:31 AM MDT
Since we are harping at symantics, has anyone thought about how they are torturing the equipment by the way garbage is collected?If you accelerate hard and brake hard, shift from forward to reverse and back again hundreds of times a day, it will take its toll on the $200k+ trucks that the city is forced to replace after only 5-7 years of use. That is wrong. You want to complain about the fee, think about what is costing the most. The fact that they get the job done in less than 8 hours is not a factor. It is the method they use to get it done is. They only get paid for 8 hours. They would get that anyway. We just need them to take better care of the equipment and save our cost of repairs and replacement. Not a big savings, but a savings non the less.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Friday, May 05 2006 @ 09:51 AM MDT
"Authored by: chzhead on Friday, May 05 2006 @ 06:31 AM MDT Since we are harping at symantics, has anyone thought about how they are torturing the equipment by the way garbage is collected?If you accelerate hard and brake hard, shift from forward to reverse and back again hundreds of times a day, it will take its toll on the $200k+ trucks that the city is forced to replace after only 5-7 years of use. That is wrong. You want to complain about the fee, think about what is costing the most. The fact that they get the job done in less than 8 hours is not a factor. It is the method they use to get it done is. They only get paid for 8 hours. They would get that anyway. We just need them to take better care of the equipment and save our cost of repairs and replacement. Not a big savings, but a savings non the less."
Outstanding observation chzhead!
Garbage Fee
Authored by: DBCooper on Sunday, May 07 2006 @ 12:12 AM MDT
Incentive systems are only as good as the management that is supposed to be managing them.We have an incentive system in Oshkosh, like it or not, that pays sanitation workers for 8 hours of work regardless of how long it takes them to run their designated routes.Because we have poor management of the incentive system, we have issues with not all of the garbage being picked up, we have issues with messes being left behind, we have issues with worker (and citizen) safety, and we have issues with excessive wear and tear on vehicles, all of which have been pointed out in other posts on this thread.MJS, you are 100% correct when you say "what does the contract say"! The contract does not say (can't check it now as the link is broken) anything about going home early when the route is completed. This is YET ANOTHER example of poor management. Through poor management, we now have a condition known as "past practice" if the issue should go through the greivance procedure to arbitration. Management has allowed it for such a long period of time that no matter what the contract says, the union can just expect it to be the norm, and there is a very good chance that an arbitrator would side with the union.I'll say it again: Provided that the incentive system is properly managed, I don't have a problem with it. But, it's not properly managed! I'm getting the idea that you don't understand incentive systems. If that is the case, there isn't enough room on this message board for me to fully explain them to you, and I certainly can't explain all the details of time and motion studies, route analysis (potentially via computer, data, and GPS), etc, to show you how the standards are developed. The point I'm trying to make here is that Oshkosh is not out developing some new kind of program on their own. (If you do think that, you may be giving them too much credit???) The incentive system of 8 hours pay for the route is an "industry standard" in that it is in place from sea to shining sea. The industry in this case is that of a defined route. Rural letter carriers, trash collection, milk delivery, newspaper delivery, etc are all examples.This is sometimes called a "task system", and examples where a task system are employed would be janitorial work, and in some cases automotive repair. The difference is, say in automotive repair, the worker does not go home after completing 8 hours work in 6 hours, he or she completes more tasks in 8 hours and then gets paid for 12 hours or whatever the pace is set at. This used to be called "piece work" in industrial settings, and it was governed by trained time study specialists on both the union and management side.You can't complete "more tasks per day" on a garbage route. Once the route is complete there won't be more trash until the next day! Having workers do something like say cut grass just means you are paying them more money. You haven't saved a single dime.Ah, you say, but we're saving their benefits! In theory, yes. In reality, you won't. If the workers incentive is to leave early, as has been pointed out before they will simply slow down. Money in the form of overtime is not all it used to be cracked up to be. Some workers prefer time off. Also, if for some reason the route is slower, maybe there is an equipment breakdown, or some cleanup like after a big storm hits ala 2001, the workers aren't available to do the extra work that you were planning on them doing.Here is the proof that this is a concept used all over the country, since you seem to think it is something new to Oshkosh: Toledo: see where it says "Toledo's refuse employees work on an incentive system that allows them to end their work shift whenever they finish their routes. http://www.wasteinfo.com/news/stories/archives/1997/06/MI/M97611.htm Albuquerque: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060327/27eepfeffer.intro.htm
(note that it isn't working there for the same reasons as in Oshkosh!)
Maui: one paragraph up from the bottom of the page http://www.co.maui.hi.us/departments/Personnel/faq.htm#q31Memphis : I'll save you reading the entire article, about 90% of the way through it says this "an incentive plan under which workers can go home early if they finish their route ahead of schedule. http://www.newgomemphis.com/newgo/mlk/strike.html
I could cite further examples from rural letter carriers, etc, my hope is that you see from the above that "going home early" is in fact used in a lot more places than just Oshkosh. From the comfort of my easy chair, I can't provide you with the proof you seek about who else is using the system in this area. You will have to trust me when I say Appleton, Green Bay, Mosinee, etc. In reality, the number of cities in this area that pick up their own garbage has been shrinking for years, (BIG HINT HINT!!!) and I can't tell you what the private refuse haulers are doing in a lot of the area communities!
DBCooper
Contributed by: Jim B.
Cheryl, I took part in the citizens academy, and would recommend it to anyone interested in learning more about how our city operates. It is true that Mr. Wollangk told us about the proposed garbage fee. He was in the middle of going through the new budget, and he presented it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Some in the class asked some very good questions about options, but they were all shot down by Mr. Wollangk (almost before he heard them).
I have a couple of observations about this fee and the seemingly rhetoric coming from our city Manager. I live on a street that has a perpinducular street running into it on the East side. I watch the garbage men every garbage day come down my street, get to the end, then back up to the perpindicular street. They have obviously been doing this for years because the guy who picks up the actual cans takes off running toward the street before the driver even starts backing up. If they can back up like this, why can't they do it in condo complexes? Another issue I have is the garbage men themselves are in such a hurry, that they neglect to notice or pick up garbage they have dropped on the streets. Almost every garbage day my street is littered with garbage from their doing. This drives me crazy, and I have called the sanitiation department several times to lodge a complaint. What is their hurry? I have seen it mentioned on other threads, but do they get off early if they get done early? That just doesn't seem right if they are continually creating a mess!
Jim B.
[following are responses to the above post as they originally appeared on an earlier version of Eye on Oshkosh]
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Tuesday, May 02 2006 @ 10:53 AM MDT
Yes Jim you are correct. They rush through their routes and then are able to leave for the day...often after much less than a standard 8 hour shift. I have heard some of the reasons for this, but in my opinion they don't hold water. All workers (city and private sector) should be held accountable. If they finish their route early, I have to believe there is something else that could be done with their skilled costly labor.Mr. Wollangk need to start supporting the citizens of Oshkosh. Too many of the administrators and department managers seem to be intimidated by the unions. Maybe that is because if the Union ranks get large raises in wage and benefits, it only goes that the department managers and administrators will also receive premimum increases.The waste, odd working schedules, duplication of services, un-accountability need to be addressed. Our elected council members need to push for this.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: DBCooper on Tuesday, May 02 2006 @ 09:12 PM MDT
Several of us have commented earlier on the incentive system used by the sanitation department.MJS, the routes are designed for 8 hours of work at a 100% pace. There are industry recognized standards for this. The people are working at a pace of 125% if they get finished in 6 hours instead of 8, and they are being paid for 8 hours. What you are asking for is 10 hours of work in 8 hours, for 8 hours pay. It will never happen! They will make the 8 hours of work last 8 hours. It's been happening since incentive systems were invented, regardless of the industry.Clearly, if employees are leaving a mess behind, this is wrong and should not be tolerated.I'm more or less in favor of the incentive system, PROVIDED the entire job gets done! My problem with the incentive system is the safety of the people. Getting done faster is one thing, but at the pace these people are working it's only a matter of time before somebody steps into traffic without looking or thinking, somebody has the truck in gear and steps on the throttle when somebody else is in the way, somebody backs up when somebody else isn't clear, etc. The steps the workers ride on are not supposed to be used above 10mph or for more than .2 miles at any one time. How many times do we see that abused? They can be KILLED for not following these rules! Picking up garbage bags while riding on the step and heaving it into the hopper is an invitation to an arm or shoulder muscle or joint injury.There is a complete treatise on garbage truck safety here including accident reports: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/refuse.html
What it comes down to is the city has implemented this incentive plan. Fine. But, abuses of all kinds are occuring with it, and instead of having managers managing the people and the problems, they appear to just let them run rampant. Remember that when accidents occur to refuse workers, no matter how minor the injury, WE pay for them!Back to Jim B's problem of leftover garbage. The city unveiled it's new website last week. It would be nice to see web based message boards for each department, where you could lodge a "complaint" like yours. (As far as that goes, it could be for suggestions also, not just complaints). More importantly, it would be nice to see somebody from the city answer it in a timely fashion. Even a "Dear JimB, we looked into your concern and it appears that the wind blew this trash around, so there is nothing we can do" is better than no answer at all, right?
To the subject of backing down alleys now. The US government instituted the CDL (commercial drivers license) in 1996. Without getting into all of the details of it, anybody who drives a class 8 refuse truck in the city of Oshkosh (and they are all class 8's) needs to have a Class A CDL, with no "endorsements". See pages 98-100 of this pdf file: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/docs/cdl-vol1.pdf
These pages detail the Basic Vehicle Control Skills Test. Wisconsin examiners use the "straight line" and "curved path" (alley dock) backing maneuvers during the test. In order to be be issued a Class A CDL in Wisconsin, you need to be able to back up a large truck! The decision to not pick up in alleys because it was "unsafe" is just another example of poor management on the part of the city. The many known unsafe conditions that I outlined above, they turn a blind eye to. A skill required during the driving test that their employees take, that hundreds of thousands of truck drivers do every day, THAT they deem to be unsafe...
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 06:56 AM MDT
NO! to the message boards. They would turn into nothing more than blogs of people dropping insults, much like blogs online have a tendency to become.If you have a complaint against a city employee or department, pick up the phone! Call the department head and advise him/her of your concern! If that doesn't suit your fancy, send an e-mail! All of the department heads' e-mails should be listed, and you can drop them a line that way.We do not need a public flogging forum to air our dirty laundry when it comes to problems we have with city departments. There are appropriate means to voice concerns, DB, but your suggestion is not the correct one, in my opinion.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 08:59 AM MDT
"......Authored by: oshwi324 on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 06:56 AM MDT "NO! to the message boards. We do not need a public flogging forum to air our dirty laundry when it comes to problems we have with city departments...."
I think it is a good thing to be open. If there is any "Dirty Laundry" let it receive the light of day. That and a little bleach and it might be cleaned up!:)
Garbage Fee
Authored by: DBCooper on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 11:23 AM MDT
Oh, but we DO need a public forum for lodging complaints!The originator of this thread has stated that he HAS contacted the responsible department and gotten nowhere. That is because the city can just sweep it under the rug, act like they lost it, whatever, instead of providing real customer service to us the customers!
Garbage Fee
Authored by: Jim B. on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 11:48 AM MDT
DB,My complaints and feedback have always been handled with good manners and a positive attitude by the people I have talked to at the sanitation department. However, I have never had any follow up to my questions and complaints(not that I was expecting any) on this particular issue. I have had in the past follow up from the department head when I complained about city a truck driver(non garbage) throwing out his garbage on my street. The head of the department called me back twice to verify information and was adamant that the person in question was dealt with accordingly. I am still amazed that a city worker would think it is appropriate to throw his garbage out of his truck on a city street! My personal feeling about listening to Mr. Wollangk many times during the city academy was he had the, "you don't know because you are just a citizen" attitude. He is a very nice guy with a good sense of humor, and I think knows how to do his job, but it always seemed like, "just let the professional handle this" attitude. We couldnt possibly understand the complexities of these matters being just citizens!
Jim B.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: Thedog on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 04:37 PM MDT
Jim B. I agree with 100% in reguards to out city managers attitude.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 09:04 AM MDT
......MJS, the routes are designed for 8 hours of work at a 100% pace. There are industry recognized standards for this. The people are working at a pace of 125% if they get finished in 6 hours instead of 8, and they are being paid for 8 hours. What you are asking for is 10 hours of work in 8 hours, for 8 hours pay. It will never happen! They will make the 8 hours of work last 8 hours. It's been happening since incentive systems were invented, regardless of the industry. Interesting. Please share more information regarding this INDUSTRY STANDARD. And how the incentive system came about, what the standards are for a community like Oshkosh,are any other cities in our area using the same incentive system, who monitors the success, etc etc. Sounds like one heck of a benefit for the workers...whats the benefit to the city and taxpayers??
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Wednesday, May 03 2006 @ 09:58 PM MDT
The benefit is that your garbage gets picked up every week. WHO CARES if they can do it in 6 hours or 8? As long as it gets picked up, WHO CARES? If you want it to take 8 hours, they will make it take 8 hours. Are we trying to invent things to complain about here, or do you have a legitimate gripe?
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 10:19 AM MDT
Regarding the hourly incentive plan.It's not the way the world works in general. Good or bad it is just different. When things are not the "norm" they tend to be looked at with a sceptical view. So...this type of arrangement leaves itself open to criticism and you or city management better be able to defend the desision, not just say "the work gets done so shut up and don't complain" sorry, that doesn't cut it.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 11:39 AM MDT
But come on, it's garbage pickup. Other than leaving a mess, which has been complained about and should be taken of, as long as they get the job done, I don't really care how long it takes.There are other jobs that work under the same principle. Construction is a great example. Those guys don't get paid by the hour, they get paid by the job. Shingle a house for $2000. Great! I don't care if it takes you 2 days or 2 weeks, you get 2 grand either way.Garbage pickup is viewed as the same thing. Seriously, who wants this job anyways? If they can do it more efficiently and get out of work a little sooner, I certainly don't care.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 01:28 PM MDT
you have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.I'm just looking at the metrics of it.Officially, how are they listed as being compensated in the Union contract? By the hour? By the day? I would submit if the contract says HOURLY, and based on a standard 8 hour work day, then thats what should be worked.If the contract is written differently, well then produce it and justify the "by day" position you're taking.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: oshwi324 on Thursday, May 04 2006 @ 02:13 PM MDT
You're nitpicking a little, aren't you? Is your garbage not picked up to your satisfaction? Obviously not. I don't understand what the big deal is. MJS, you are obviously someone who is down on city government and you're going to find something to complain about no matter what.For the record, I tried to get into the city's website to research the contract, but the link is broken.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: chzhead on Friday, May 05 2006 @ 06:31 AM MDT
Since we are harping at symantics, has anyone thought about how they are torturing the equipment by the way garbage is collected?If you accelerate hard and brake hard, shift from forward to reverse and back again hundreds of times a day, it will take its toll on the $200k+ trucks that the city is forced to replace after only 5-7 years of use. That is wrong. You want to complain about the fee, think about what is costing the most. The fact that they get the job done in less than 8 hours is not a factor. It is the method they use to get it done is. They only get paid for 8 hours. They would get that anyway. We just need them to take better care of the equipment and save our cost of repairs and replacement. Not a big savings, but a savings non the less.
Garbage Fee
Authored by: mjs on Friday, May 05 2006 @ 09:51 AM MDT
"Authored by: chzhead on Friday, May 05 2006 @ 06:31 AM MDT Since we are harping at symantics, has anyone thought about how they are torturing the equipment by the way garbage is collected?If you accelerate hard and brake hard, shift from forward to reverse and back again hundreds of times a day, it will take its toll on the $200k+ trucks that the city is forced to replace after only 5-7 years of use. That is wrong. You want to complain about the fee, think about what is costing the most. The fact that they get the job done in less than 8 hours is not a factor. It is the method they use to get it done is. They only get paid for 8 hours. They would get that anyway. We just need them to take better care of the equipment and save our cost of repairs and replacement. Not a big savings, but a savings non the less."
Outstanding observation chzhead!
Garbage Fee
Authored by: DBCooper on Sunday, May 07 2006 @ 12:12 AM MDT
Incentive systems are only as good as the management that is supposed to be managing them.We have an incentive system in Oshkosh, like it or not, that pays sanitation workers for 8 hours of work regardless of how long it takes them to run their designated routes.Because we have poor management of the incentive system, we have issues with not all of the garbage being picked up, we have issues with messes being left behind, we have issues with worker (and citizen) safety, and we have issues with excessive wear and tear on vehicles, all of which have been pointed out in other posts on this thread.MJS, you are 100% correct when you say "what does the contract say"! The contract does not say (can't check it now as the link is broken) anything about going home early when the route is completed. This is YET ANOTHER example of poor management. Through poor management, we now have a condition known as "past practice" if the issue should go through the greivance procedure to arbitration. Management has allowed it for such a long period of time that no matter what the contract says, the union can just expect it to be the norm, and there is a very good chance that an arbitrator would side with the union.I'll say it again: Provided that the incentive system is properly managed, I don't have a problem with it. But, it's not properly managed! I'm getting the idea that you don't understand incentive systems. If that is the case, there isn't enough room on this message board for me to fully explain them to you, and I certainly can't explain all the details of time and motion studies, route analysis (potentially via computer, data, and GPS), etc, to show you how the standards are developed. The point I'm trying to make here is that Oshkosh is not out developing some new kind of program on their own. (If you do think that, you may be giving them too much credit???) The incentive system of 8 hours pay for the route is an "industry standard" in that it is in place from sea to shining sea. The industry in this case is that of a defined route. Rural letter carriers, trash collection, milk delivery, newspaper delivery, etc are all examples.This is sometimes called a "task system", and examples where a task system are employed would be janitorial work, and in some cases automotive repair. The difference is, say in automotive repair, the worker does not go home after completing 8 hours work in 6 hours, he or she completes more tasks in 8 hours and then gets paid for 12 hours or whatever the pace is set at. This used to be called "piece work" in industrial settings, and it was governed by trained time study specialists on both the union and management side.You can't complete "more tasks per day" on a garbage route. Once the route is complete there won't be more trash until the next day! Having workers do something like say cut grass just means you are paying them more money. You haven't saved a single dime.Ah, you say, but we're saving their benefits! In theory, yes. In reality, you won't. If the workers incentive is to leave early, as has been pointed out before they will simply slow down. Money in the form of overtime is not all it used to be cracked up to be. Some workers prefer time off. Also, if for some reason the route is slower, maybe there is an equipment breakdown, or some cleanup like after a big storm hits ala 2001, the workers aren't available to do the extra work that you were planning on them doing.Here is the proof that this is a concept used all over the country, since you seem to think it is something new to Oshkosh: Toledo: see where it says "Toledo's refuse employees work on an incentive system that allows them to end their work shift whenever they finish their routes. http://www.wasteinfo.com/news/stories/archives/1997/06/MI/M97611.htm Albuquerque: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060327/27eepfeffer.intro.htm
(note that it isn't working there for the same reasons as in Oshkosh!)
Maui: one paragraph up from the bottom of the page http://www.co.maui.hi.us/departments/Personnel/faq.htm#q31Memphis : I'll save you reading the entire article, about 90% of the way through it says this "an incentive plan under which workers can go home early if they finish their route ahead of schedule. http://www.newgomemphis.com/newgo/mlk/strike.html
I could cite further examples from rural letter carriers, etc, my hope is that you see from the above that "going home early" is in fact used in a lot more places than just Oshkosh. From the comfort of my easy chair, I can't provide you with the proof you seek about who else is using the system in this area. You will have to trust me when I say Appleton, Green Bay, Mosinee, etc. In reality, the number of cities in this area that pick up their own garbage has been shrinking for years, (BIG HINT HINT!!!) and I can't tell you what the private refuse haulers are doing in a lot of the area communities!
DBCooper
posted by Cheryl Hentz at 12:33 PM
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