County board sends wrong message about fees
Contributed by: admin
Last night the Winnebago County Board voted 20-14 not to impose fees on soccer organizations for the use of and reserving of fields at the county park. This vote was disappointing.
While none of us likes fees, they are, unfortunately a way of life inthese tough economic times. I certainly believe that many of these things should be included in the taxes we pay, but I also understand that many things that only a select group participte in, may have to be subsidized - at least in part - by fees. Even the school district is charging extra for participation in athletic and musical programs, etc. which are above and beyond the regular classroom activities.
I appreciated the efforts of some county board supervisors who tried to accomplish the implementation of fees but at a lesser amount. Unfortunately that effort went no where.
In the end the proposed ordinance failed and there will be - at least for now - no soccer fees imposed. This sends the wrong message and a precedent has now been set. What about the boater who comes before the county board and says "You know what, I belong to the Otter Street Fishing Club and we have helped pay for or build and maintain 'x, y and z' and I don't feel it is fair to charge our members for launching their boats at either city or county boat landings." How does the county justify fees for some special activities and not others? This was not a smart decision and needs to be reconsidered, perhaps with a lesser amount of money being sought - something that is more palatable to all. But there needs to be some fee imposed, in my opinion.
Cheryl Hentz
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 08:46 AM MDT
The key difference between the boat launch fees and the soccer fees were who was paying.
For boat launch, EVERY user paid the fee.
For soccer fees, they were ONLY going to charge the organized clubs. Other users were able to use the facilities free of charge.
Taking your Otter Street fishing metaphor, truly illistrating how the soccer fees were set up - the county would ONLY charge the Otter Streeters and let all others at the boat launch go free.
The main reason to shoot down this fee was that it was not a fair fee. It only charged the soccer clubs - the same people that have put tens of thousands of dollars into the park already.
Any other user would be able to use the park facilities and the equipment provided BY THE SOCCER CLUBS free of charge.
It was unfair and deserved to be shot down.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 11:45 AM MDT
Hall, you really are a moron!
The reason a fee should be charged for organized clubs is because they want to reserve the field for specific dates; most other people will not use the soccer fields. If you want the privilege of being able to reserve the field, you should pay for it! Why should the majority of the taxpayers who will never use the fields have to pay for a minority of people using the fields, and then the minority has the right to reserve the fields for their use? Doesn't sound quite fair.
If you want to use a pavilion in the City of Oshkosh, you need to pay for it, see the correlation? Probably not!
Cheryl, your Otter Street Fishing Club scenario was quite correct. These folks have paid thousands for boat launch repairs, and still have to pay for boat launch fees. I would be surprised, nor would I blame them if they came forward and asked to get rid of the boat launch fees.
It was depressing to see the majority of the County Board (led by "tax and spend Harris") cave into this group!
I guarantee come budget time, these same Board members will come to the taxpayers for more money for the Parks Dept. because they are short money, and the majority will have to pay for the minority to "play."
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 12:45 PM MDT
You're absolutely correct! As a taxpayer, I don't want to have to pay thousands of dollars for some people to be able to kick a ball around. If that's what they want to do, let them pay for it!
And this City Council better get it's act together and charge the $1 fee for maintenance at the amphitheatre. I didn't want that stupid thing to begin with, and I don't want to have to pay to keep the thing running! Maybe that stupid Jeff Hall can pay to keep it running, seeing as he doesn't agree that the people using the venue should be charged.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:49 PM MDT
How dare you call someone a name! Clean up your act and try to at least be polite in your criticism. At least people are communicating so that your can vent your spleen. It's responses like this that give this website and other blogging opportunities the bad rap that they continue to receive.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 02:39 PM MDT
Jef,
I appreciate your comments, however, the key difference as I see it is the soccer teams/leagues are reserving the fields and therefore making it impossible for other people to use them Therefore, a fee is completely appropriate and should not be complained about. It is no different than if I want to reserve a shelter in one of our parks for a family reunion, wedding reception, etc. I have to pay to do so, even though I can go in and use the park itself for free.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 03:05 PM MDT
There is a slight difference, one that has not been talked about.
In the soccer clubs' agreements with the park, they always need to leave fields available for the public, even though the public will be using the equipment that the soccer clubs put on the fields.
Other than soccer Saturday, they cannot use all the fields.
However, with shelters, they can all be used up.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 03:19 PM MDT
I did not know that. I doubt if anyone else did either.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 04:21 PM MDT
Where can one find this agreement, Mr. Hall? Better yet, can you post the verbiage right here for all of us to see, exactly as it is printed in their contract? It is interesting that no one - not the media, nor *censored*y board supervisors have discussed this to my knowledge. I haven't even heard any of the soccer people discuss it. Why not?
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 04:39 PM MDT
It was discussed at the meeting last night - in fact, several members of youth soccer spoke to this fact during their statements.
It is part of the DNR agreement on the land.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 08:33 PM MDT
I have a suggestion or maybe even a challenge, could those of you who use this board be constructive in your comments. There is no need to call Mr. Harris a "tax and spender". Could you please just keep your comments pertinent to the topic at hand without degrading supervisors or council members. Cheryl does a fine job in speaking her mind without degrading others. I suggest you try it. Your points will be better taken without all the negativity.
Thank you.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 09:19 PM MDT
Thank you for the nice compliment. I appreciate it.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 07:18 AM MDT
We all should be concerned about a government that cannot live within its means and then, continues to raise our taxes above the rate of increases in personal incomes and then, charge us users fees on facilities we own......Fees are not the answer, we need new representation and elected officials.......A direct result of a bunch of appointees......
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:37 PM MDT
Appointee's? Isn't the majority of the board elected, as well as the County Executive?
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:38 PM MDT
I agree that perhaps we need new representation and new elected officials. However when you look at the last two elections - both this past November and just earlier this month - the people who actually went to the polls and voted put the same people and some others like them back in office. We need to encourage the masses who are frustrated and fed up to get to take their grievances to the polls where they can truly make a difference. That is the only way things are going to change.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:44 PM MDT
I would argue that if they are not mad enough to vote, they really aren't all that upset with the situation.
The person makes a good point as relates to the county board - many were appointed and have since not had competition.
Hopefully we will see the same sort of electoral and candidate participation we saw this spring for the city next spring for the county.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 03:39 PM MDT
I think Jef is right- if you aren't mad enough to do something as easy as vote (5 minutes between 8AM and 8PM is not that much to ask a few times a year) you aren't allowed to get mad. Sorry, but them's the breaks.
That being said, we need to take a realistic look at this last election- if you look at the vote totals compared to the last 6 years or so, we actually had a pretty good turnout for a spring election. The only reason the percentage was any lower than in recent years has more to do with outside forces, such as one-time registrations for November's presidetial election (which happened in '01 too). Also, after the throngs that crawled out of the woodwork to vote for/against the smoking ban last year, I am hard pressed to compare this year's election to one that brought so many to the polls for a single issue.
Is that to say that it isn't embarrasing for a domeocracy to have any less than a 100% voter turnout? Absolutely not, but we need to look at it from a realisitc point of view instead of blaming all of our ills on "low voter turnout". And realistically, voter turnout wasn't that bad.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 03:58 PM MDT
I could be wrong, but I think the point Cheryl was making is that if people are so upset they need to go to the polls and vote. It seems you're trying to argue with her by making the same basic point she already made.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 08:21 PM MDT
Is it possible that not as many people are unhappy as you think?
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 08:45 PM MDT
No. There are plenty of people unhappy and since the election I have talked to several who have told me so, but also said they didn't go vote. I have explained to them why they should have but there is only so much one can do about voter (or non-voter) apathy. And it's not just a local problem. Nor is it fair to those of us who do go out and vote. People shouldn't complain like they do if they don't want to vote to try solving the problem. They must learn to help themselves a little bit.
But if people think they're unhappy now, wait until property assessments come out in another couple of months and they see what their property is assessed at. Paying the taxes on increased assessed values, on top of the increased taxes for things like the amphitheater, will be quite the struggle for many. It will undoubtedly be an interesting thing to watch.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 22 2005 @ 06:14 AM MDT
I agree there are many people unhappy with the situation in this city. But you need more than 1/2 the city, and that is alot of people. I truly believe more than 1/2 of this city wants to move forward with the downtown.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 22 2005 @ 08:07 AM MDT
I think that is a little bit too reductionist a statement to make, but in essence, that is what we saw. Simply because one group or another screams louder doesn't translate into votes. I also believe that Ms. Hentz has a good point- if people are dissatisfied after their assessments come out, they ought to get mad and get to the polls. I'm ashamed to live in the same city with them if they don't.
However, spending issues were the main topic that decided this election, and I think we saw that, lo and behold, the majority of this community (at least those who vote) are willing to "suck it up" to some extent and take a short term property tax hit in order to support their view of the city's future. And this isn't just the Chamber people and the busines community, because there simply aren't enough of them to carry an election in this city. Average, everyday citizens saw certain candidates as better in line with their personal view of the city's future, and they voted that way.
Cheryl has a good point, however, in saying that maybe once they see their tax bills they will change their minds. If they do, I hope they go to the polls and excercise their right to vote their conscience. But for now, this is our city's democratically elected government and they represent the will of the people who chose to get involved with the things that effect their daily lives.
Last night the Winnebago County Board voted 20-14 not to impose fees on soccer organizations for the use of and reserving of fields at the county park. This vote was disappointing.
While none of us likes fees, they are, unfortunately a way of life inthese tough economic times. I certainly believe that many of these things should be included in the taxes we pay, but I also understand that many things that only a select group participte in, may have to be subsidized - at least in part - by fees. Even the school district is charging extra for participation in athletic and musical programs, etc. which are above and beyond the regular classroom activities.
I appreciated the efforts of some county board supervisors who tried to accomplish the implementation of fees but at a lesser amount. Unfortunately that effort went no where.
In the end the proposed ordinance failed and there will be - at least for now - no soccer fees imposed. This sends the wrong message and a precedent has now been set. What about the boater who comes before the county board and says "You know what, I belong to the Otter Street Fishing Club and we have helped pay for or build and maintain 'x, y and z' and I don't feel it is fair to charge our members for launching their boats at either city or county boat landings." How does the county justify fees for some special activities and not others? This was not a smart decision and needs to be reconsidered, perhaps with a lesser amount of money being sought - something that is more palatable to all. But there needs to be some fee imposed, in my opinion.
Cheryl Hentz
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 08:46 AM MDT
The key difference between the boat launch fees and the soccer fees were who was paying.
For boat launch, EVERY user paid the fee.
For soccer fees, they were ONLY going to charge the organized clubs. Other users were able to use the facilities free of charge.
Taking your Otter Street fishing metaphor, truly illistrating how the soccer fees were set up - the county would ONLY charge the Otter Streeters and let all others at the boat launch go free.
The main reason to shoot down this fee was that it was not a fair fee. It only charged the soccer clubs - the same people that have put tens of thousands of dollars into the park already.
Any other user would be able to use the park facilities and the equipment provided BY THE SOCCER CLUBS free of charge.
It was unfair and deserved to be shot down.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 11:45 AM MDT
Hall, you really are a moron!
The reason a fee should be charged for organized clubs is because they want to reserve the field for specific dates; most other people will not use the soccer fields. If you want the privilege of being able to reserve the field, you should pay for it! Why should the majority of the taxpayers who will never use the fields have to pay for a minority of people using the fields, and then the minority has the right to reserve the fields for their use? Doesn't sound quite fair.
If you want to use a pavilion in the City of Oshkosh, you need to pay for it, see the correlation? Probably not!
Cheryl, your Otter Street Fishing Club scenario was quite correct. These folks have paid thousands for boat launch repairs, and still have to pay for boat launch fees. I would be surprised, nor would I blame them if they came forward and asked to get rid of the boat launch fees.
It was depressing to see the majority of the County Board (led by "tax and spend Harris") cave into this group!
I guarantee come budget time, these same Board members will come to the taxpayers for more money for the Parks Dept. because they are short money, and the majority will have to pay for the minority to "play."
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 12:45 PM MDT
You're absolutely correct! As a taxpayer, I don't want to have to pay thousands of dollars for some people to be able to kick a ball around. If that's what they want to do, let them pay for it!
And this City Council better get it's act together and charge the $1 fee for maintenance at the amphitheatre. I didn't want that stupid thing to begin with, and I don't want to have to pay to keep the thing running! Maybe that stupid Jeff Hall can pay to keep it running, seeing as he doesn't agree that the people using the venue should be charged.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:49 PM MDT
How dare you call someone a name! Clean up your act and try to at least be polite in your criticism. At least people are communicating so that your can vent your spleen. It's responses like this that give this website and other blogging opportunities the bad rap that they continue to receive.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 02:39 PM MDT
Jef,
I appreciate your comments, however, the key difference as I see it is the soccer teams/leagues are reserving the fields and therefore making it impossible for other people to use them Therefore, a fee is completely appropriate and should not be complained about. It is no different than if I want to reserve a shelter in one of our parks for a family reunion, wedding reception, etc. I have to pay to do so, even though I can go in and use the park itself for free.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 03:05 PM MDT
There is a slight difference, one that has not been talked about.
In the soccer clubs' agreements with the park, they always need to leave fields available for the public, even though the public will be using the equipment that the soccer clubs put on the fields.
Other than soccer Saturday, they cannot use all the fields.
However, with shelters, they can all be used up.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 03:19 PM MDT
I did not know that. I doubt if anyone else did either.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 04:21 PM MDT
Where can one find this agreement, Mr. Hall? Better yet, can you post the verbiage right here for all of us to see, exactly as it is printed in their contract? It is interesting that no one - not the media, nor *censored*y board supervisors have discussed this to my knowledge. I haven't even heard any of the soccer people discuss it. Why not?
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 04:39 PM MDT
It was discussed at the meeting last night - in fact, several members of youth soccer spoke to this fact during their statements.
It is part of the DNR agreement on the land.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 08:33 PM MDT
I have a suggestion or maybe even a challenge, could those of you who use this board be constructive in your comments. There is no need to call Mr. Harris a "tax and spender". Could you please just keep your comments pertinent to the topic at hand without degrading supervisors or council members. Cheryl does a fine job in speaking her mind without degrading others. I suggest you try it. Your points will be better taken without all the negativity.
Thank you.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, April 20 2005 @ 09:19 PM MDT
Thank you for the nice compliment. I appreciate it.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 07:18 AM MDT
We all should be concerned about a government that cannot live within its means and then, continues to raise our taxes above the rate of increases in personal incomes and then, charge us users fees on facilities we own......Fees are not the answer, we need new representation and elected officials.......A direct result of a bunch of appointees......
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:37 PM MDT
Appointee's? Isn't the majority of the board elected, as well as the County Executive?
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:38 PM MDT
I agree that perhaps we need new representation and new elected officials. However when you look at the last two elections - both this past November and just earlier this month - the people who actually went to the polls and voted put the same people and some others like them back in office. We need to encourage the masses who are frustrated and fed up to get to take their grievances to the polls where they can truly make a difference. That is the only way things are going to change.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: jef on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 01:44 PM MDT
I would argue that if they are not mad enough to vote, they really aren't all that upset with the situation.
The person makes a good point as relates to the county board - many were appointed and have since not had competition.
Hopefully we will see the same sort of electoral and candidate participation we saw this spring for the city next spring for the county.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 03:39 PM MDT
I think Jef is right- if you aren't mad enough to do something as easy as vote (5 minutes between 8AM and 8PM is not that much to ask a few times a year) you aren't allowed to get mad. Sorry, but them's the breaks.
That being said, we need to take a realistic look at this last election- if you look at the vote totals compared to the last 6 years or so, we actually had a pretty good turnout for a spring election. The only reason the percentage was any lower than in recent years has more to do with outside forces, such as one-time registrations for November's presidetial election (which happened in '01 too). Also, after the throngs that crawled out of the woodwork to vote for/against the smoking ban last year, I am hard pressed to compare this year's election to one that brought so many to the polls for a single issue.
Is that to say that it isn't embarrasing for a domeocracy to have any less than a 100% voter turnout? Absolutely not, but we need to look at it from a realisitc point of view instead of blaming all of our ills on "low voter turnout". And realistically, voter turnout wasn't that bad.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 03:58 PM MDT
I could be wrong, but I think the point Cheryl was making is that if people are so upset they need to go to the polls and vote. It seems you're trying to argue with her by making the same basic point she already made.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 08:21 PM MDT
Is it possible that not as many people are unhappy as you think?
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: admin on Thursday, April 21 2005 @ 08:45 PM MDT
No. There are plenty of people unhappy and since the election I have talked to several who have told me so, but also said they didn't go vote. I have explained to them why they should have but there is only so much one can do about voter (or non-voter) apathy. And it's not just a local problem. Nor is it fair to those of us who do go out and vote. People shouldn't complain like they do if they don't want to vote to try solving the problem. They must learn to help themselves a little bit.
But if people think they're unhappy now, wait until property assessments come out in another couple of months and they see what their property is assessed at. Paying the taxes on increased assessed values, on top of the increased taxes for things like the amphitheater, will be quite the struggle for many. It will undoubtedly be an interesting thing to watch.
Cheryl Hentz
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 22 2005 @ 06:14 AM MDT
I agree there are many people unhappy with the situation in this city. But you need more than 1/2 the city, and that is alot of people. I truly believe more than 1/2 of this city wants to move forward with the downtown.
County board sends wrong message about fees
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 22 2005 @ 08:07 AM MDT
I think that is a little bit too reductionist a statement to make, but in essence, that is what we saw. Simply because one group or another screams louder doesn't translate into votes. I also believe that Ms. Hentz has a good point- if people are dissatisfied after their assessments come out, they ought to get mad and get to the polls. I'm ashamed to live in the same city with them if they don't.
However, spending issues were the main topic that decided this election, and I think we saw that, lo and behold, the majority of this community (at least those who vote) are willing to "suck it up" to some extent and take a short term property tax hit in order to support their view of the city's future. And this isn't just the Chamber people and the busines community, because there simply aren't enough of them to carry an election in this city. Average, everyday citizens saw certain candidates as better in line with their personal view of the city's future, and they voted that way.
Cheryl has a good point, however, in saying that maybe once they see their tax bills they will change their minds. If they do, I hope they go to the polls and excercise their right to vote their conscience. But for now, this is our city's democratically elected government and they represent the will of the people who chose to get involved with the things that effect their daily lives.
posted by Cheryl Hentz at 7:33 AM
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