Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Contributed by: Anonymous
In a letter to the editor of the Oshkosh Northwestern, former school board member Theresa Thiel wrote that in 14 years of research that her father did, he found "no factual evidence that going smoke free caused a restaurant to lose business and in most cases business increased because the vast majority of people are non-smokers (about 75 percent)."
That is very interesting. I wonder how she or he then explain the fact that certain restaurants all over the country
have been granted hardship clauses because they lost business when a ban went into effect. While a majority of people may not smoke it is a fact that most smokers do so while drinking at a bar. That bar money attributes to a large portion of a business's bottom line and that is where they make much of their profit.
It would also be interesting for Mrs. Thiel to explain where she thinks that 25% of smokers go (to use her quoted figures). If that would equate to 25% of a restaurant's business, that would translate to a huge loss. Should we take away 25% of Mrs. Thiel's household income and see how well she and her family manage? These people are just ridiculous when they want to push their agenda.
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Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 04:42 PM MDT
The thing that all of you anti-smoking ban people miss is that this is a public health issue. Take the health care costs in this country that are a direct result of smoking, and compare them to the lost business you all are so worried about. Revenue lost from restaurants wouldn't touch the health care costs resulting from this life threatening habit. Smoking is such a health risk that on death certificates in the State of Wisconsin, there is a check box to indicate if a person's death was somehow related to smoking. OPEN YOUR EYES!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 06:17 PM MDT
I would hazard I small wager or better yet an educated guess that the person that wrote this is medically over weight. Why would this be a safe and educated guess, because according to the medical literture now out 85% of all adults and even more stagering childhood numbers are obese!
You want to talk about serious healthcare risk and cost, let us tally up ALL the associated costs for people medically over weight. Let's talk about the children in our schools that can barely waddle to the play ground.
I am not suggesting that smoking is a good thing, I even agree that it is a serious health risk, what I am suggesting is that it is not illegal, nor immoral to smoke, that smokers pay very high per pack taxes that off set your overall tax burden, There should be a place set aside for an adult to smoke after a nice dinner. If not then I beleive the only fair thing to do is take all beef products, cheese products, anything sweet or high in calories off the menus, and have the rightous eat in secret and silence!!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 07:46 PM MDT
I'm not a smoker. As a matter of fact, I hate smoking. I think it's a disgusting, stupid habit. I'll go you one better than that, I think smokers are mentally weak people. Smoking is not an addiction, here's proof: A smoker can go with 8 hours of sleep, no cigarette. Wake up, got to have a smoke, and thereafter every hour. If it was an addiction, they'd wake up every hour needing a smoke.
I'm not pro-restaurant either. Some of the tooth and nail smoking ban fighting restaurant owners in this town have a problem. It isn't a smoking ban either. It's the fact that their restaurants or their food sucks, or both, and they have for some time. Business is going down, down, down, while competition is increasing at a fast pace. For them, the smoking ban is nothing but a scapegoat. Some owners are so focused on the scapegoat that I think they are starting to believe even themselves!
But, with all that said, I'm an anti-smoking ban person. I voted against it, and I would again.
This is about liberty.
This is about not being a butt-in-ski. If you don't want to breathe bad air, don't go where the air is bad. It's not your "right" to go to a smoke free restaurant. Too many people misuse that word. Mind your own business, like your mother taught you (or should have). Don't come around with self-righteous crap about smoking being a public health hazard either. Cigarettes are legal products, just like the unhealthy stuff being served inside the restaurants. You don't have a problem with that, do you? No, because YOU like it.
Do you know WHY there is a box for smoking on a Wisconsin death certificate? Because of butt-in-skis like you, that's why. Self-righteous do-gooders petitioned enough spineless state politicians until it got added by law, more than likely. All under the guise of collecting data, to prove how much we need to be protected from ourselves.
What is next after smoking? Will the next check box on the death certificate be "butterburger eater?"
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:02 PM MDT
At least I didn't make you angry. Last time I checked, the recommended daily allowance for fat in a 2000 calorie diet was 80 grams. Not zero. 80. I don't recall seeing that there was a recommendation for the amount of smoke I should inhale, either directly from smoking cigarettes or second hand smoke. Why? BEACUSE THERE IS NONE!
This absolutely is about public health. Are we a little late in the game? Only by a couple of thousand of years. But it is dangerous for all involved nonetheless, and we might as well make it an issue now. Better late than never.
Please tell me how eating a tenderloin at the Roxy with vegetables, rice pilaf and a couple of beers makes me a walking time bomb.
Self righteous. Self righteous. Hmmm. Seems to me I heard that somewhere before. Last night at the council meeting, maybe? Are you two one in the same?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:42 PM MDT
Where on the latest food pyramid or in any RDA does it say that you should have 2 beers? It doesn't, does it? But because you like it, it's OK?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 08:12 AM MDT
I absolutely love the conversation by the rightous about clean air...please define clean air. It DOES NOT exist! Do you drive a car, SUV, do you work in a factory, an office buliding? Do you use aerosal can to spray bugs in your yard, or style your hair? STOP the hypocritical mumbogumbo, You are an offender ever bit as bad as the smoker, and statically your probably obese as well talk about a double righteous whammy.
Maybe you should try living in a bubble, it is the only way to protect you from life, and all it's naste imperfections, and overeating. If you sincerely believe that 80 grams of fat in your daily diet is acceptable you should see a Cariodologist and a serious dietician. That is grossly out of line, unless your an Atkins fad flunky.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 07:27 AM MDT
Ok, then doctor. Please tell me what the USRDA is for fat in a 2000 calorie diet.
It's 80 grams of fat. Do a little research before you make a fool of yourself.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:21 PM MDT
WHAT IS YOUR UPPER LIMIT ON
FAT FOR THE CALORIES YOU
CONSUME?
Total Cal Sat. Fat Total Fat
1,600 18 grams 53 grams
2,000* 20 grams 65 grams
2,200 24 grams 73 grams
2,500* 25 grams 80 grams
2,800 31 grams 93 grams
From US Dept. of Agriculture website www.usda.gov/cnpp/DietGd.pdf (p.30 of report)
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:09 PM MDT
Let us not forget that all of these hypocrite Breathe Free nuts all drive vehicles, some that probably get terrible gas mileage.
Do you know how much it harms the environment to extract and refine oil? Not to mention the Carbon Monoxide that their vehicles spew out every time they start their engines? Everyone has to breathe in their Carbon Monoxide when they drive their vehicles. But it doesn't seem that they're worried about that because it wouldn't be convenient for them to be without their vehicles.
These Breathe Free folk are the height of hypocrisy!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:29 PM MDT
Do you drive a car? Then stop with that argument, hypocrite. Furthermore, take any CO detector and take it outside. What does it read? ZERO.
Another lousy argument. Keep trying.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:55 PM MDT
How is that person being a hypocrite? They don't care about the CO levels in a restaurant or outside. BFO people do care about it inside, but they think it's OK for themselves to pollute the outside. That's being hypocritical...
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:07 PM MDT
To criticize someone for driving a car because of the CO it emits, and then to do it yourself, is being a hypocrite.
This isn't about CO. CO is not a carcinogen. CO is not what kills people when it comes to smoking. It's the destruction of lung tissue that occurs over time. It's the hundreds of chemicals in the smoke that are dangerous. It's the proven risk that occurs with exposure to any type of smoke that is a by product of tobacco.
That's what this is about.
If you want to argue about simple combustion, then let's do it. Do you allow your car to exhaust into the passenger compartment? No. Do you keep the chimney closed when you have a fire in your fireplace? No. Do you have a camp fire in your living room? No. So if you want to smoke, go outside.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 08:29 AM MDT
OK, let's debate the emissions of an internal combustion engine.
Do you really think the emissions of your car engine don't harm everyone? Are you that stupid? Of course the emissions of an internal combustion engine are spread over a much larger area than a cigarette in a restaurant, but it has now been proven that the internal combustion engine and fluorocarbons are eroding the atmosphere of the earth, which in turn erodes the quality of the air that you so preciously talk about here.
Please don't minimize the fact that the vehicle that you drive doesn't harm EVERYONE. Fact is your vehicle is harming other people's clean air, and you're a hypocrite!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:01 AM MDT
Do you start your car and let it run inside your garage? How about your home?
If you want to smoke, go outside. If you want to talk about pollution, start another thread. If you want to make an educated argument....never mind. That'll never happen.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:37 AM MDT
There you go again. Educated arguments were stated originally and the chest-thumping do-gooders can do nothing but continue talking about how it's a public health issue They refuse to answer the questions posed. So don't people don't want to have an educated argument. Perhaps you think it's only educated when their side is in harmony with yours.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:01 AM MDT
There are regulations that pose profit constraints on any business. This, in my opinion, is simply another that is necessary. The ideal situation would be an across the board smoking ban, state wide. Then all restaurants would be on a level playing field. In the absence of that, the locally administered smoking ban will suffice.
<<>>>
<<>>
How's that?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:37 AM MDT
In case you had not noticed the state is looking at doing that very thing. That should solve the probelm for most. Thought the Breathe Free people will neer be happy with just that. That want everything their way. Compromise is not a word they choose to include in their vocabulary.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 11:57 AM MDT
Of course I noticed the state is pursuing a smoking ban. Hooray!
As far as BFO compromising, and I am asking here, cause I don't know, what compromises were those against the smoking ban willing to make?
BFO brought forth what they thought met their requirements for a smoking ban, and what they thought would not be so restrictive that the citizens wouldn't vote for it. They were right. They won.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:06 PM MDT
I agree with many of your points but smoking is an addiction. Let's use your example about smokers not having to wake up every hour to smoke. Drug addicts or alcoholics don't wake up every hour to get stoned or have another drink. I agree that it is habitual for many, but there is an element of addiction there too. If not the tobacco companies would not have had to pay all that tobacco money.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 09:05 AM MDT
Public health issues notwithstanding, why will you not address the questions posed in the original posting? If smoking bans do not cause restaurant business to be lost how do you explain the fact that so many have lost business, not just in Oshkosh but across the nation? If 25 percent of the population smokes, then it is possible that they are going elsewhere where bans are not in place or where a ban is not as strict as in Oshkosh, making this even more unfair to restaurant owners. The other question you are not answering is, how would you like it if we cut your household income by 25 percent? Tell you what: let's be generous and only cut it by 10 percent. Is that acceptable to you?
Instead of continuing to make the same tired old arguments, why not offer some respectful and reasonable suggestions on how restaurants can get their business back? But please do not do what Margy Davy did by suggesting that one owner turn his establishment into a bar. That is not respectful or reasonable.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 06:59 AM MDT
But the fact of the matter is, if this truly is a public health issue, (and it is), then the loss of revenue is not an argument NOT to have a smoking ban! How much more money could businesses make if there weren't rules regarding waste product emissions? What if they could just dump their junk into the waterways, as in years past? What if they could billow their products of production into thr atmosphere without first reducing the toxins? What if we didn't have to have food inspected? What if grocers could put any old piece of meat on the shelves, without concern regarding it's freshness or age or quality? What if we didn't have to have catalytic converters on cars? These companies would make millions more dollars. But it's not about that! It's about the health issue that exists as a result of smoking.
Go back and read an earlier post of mine: What about the costs to all of us (through health care costs, insurance premiums, etc) who pay for the illnesses created by smoking? Do you really think you and I don't pay for this? If we don't, who does? You see, it's money out of YOUR pocket already! Don't you understand that?
The solution would be a state wide smoking ban, which I hope works out. Do I agree completely with the local ban? Certainly not. But it is better than nothing. So please don't drag the money argument into this. This goes way above that.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:41 AM MDT
So I guess these people's livlihoods should just be flushed down the crapper because of a public health issue, in a place, mind you, that you don't have to go into. That is the point. You have choices. Certain public health issues, like illegal dumping, air quality and the like have rules in place because those things affect everyone. Smoking in a restaurant or at a bar affects only the health of those in that establishment and they have chosen to be there. There is the difference.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:50 AM MDT
I suppose, then, that all the millworkers in the south in the first half of the twentieth century should have not been protected from the destruction of their lungs and the ruin of their health, because (to follow your rationale), they could CHOOSE not to work in the mill? So we shouldn't have enacted health and safety standards in the textile industry because those workers weren't being FORCED to work there?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 01:30 AM MDT
Oh yeah, textile mills in the US becoming unionized and having laws passed to insure the health of the workers. THERE'S a real success story!!!
Where are your clothes made, and worse yet, where do you shop for them?
Oshkosh By GoshNOT.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 07:35 AM MDT
Right, and you shop for all of your clothes at Wal Mart.
Did you read the Northwestern several weeks ago, and see how much Wal Mart alone costs taxpayers in this state every year because of the top notch benefits they provide their employees? So keep shopping at these shops that go out of their way to promote NON ORGANIZED labor. They too are driving your taxes up!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 09:28 AM MDT
At the rate everything keeps going up, including our taxes, and the way wages (for those who manage to stay working) are not keeping up with the cost of living, we can afford to shop owhere BUT WalMart. Sorry but that is the unfortnate reality of everything. I am all for unionized labor but maybe the union leaders need to try harder to stop unrealistic spending by elected officials and to have them do more to encourage jobs in their locales that pay a living wage. Then we could afford to shop somewhere other than WalMart. People shop where the bargains are for a reason. It's called economics.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 11:38 AM MDT
The thing you don't understand is that it is corporations like Wal Mart that contribute to the rise of our taxes! Wal Mart offers such petty benefits to their emplyees, that the state had to pay out 2.7 million dollars in BadgerCare funds last year just to cover the health care costs for Wal Mart employees who didn't have adequate health insurance. So who is paying for their health care? We are! How? Through our taxes!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:01 PM MDT
Yup and we're paying through our taxes for other things some of us didn't want or benefit from either, like all the extra to go along with the bandshell. It would be nice though if we could get back to the point of somebody answering the questioned asked in the original post. This is not supposed to be about WalMart and unionized labor, nor health insurance.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:32 PM MDT
To answer the original question of where do the smokers go...most of them continue to go to their favorite restaurants, they just smoke outside, drive around Oshkosh and you'll see smokers smoking in the parking lot of restaurants. The few smokers who won't go to restaurants are more than made up for by the number of non-smokers who used to stay home but are now eating out. Check out the www.oshkoshnews.org site and read the letter by Steve Barney to Sen. Carol Roessler which seems to confirm Mrs. Theil's comments about business increasing when restaurants go smoke free.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: admin on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 02:04 PM MDT
Yet the restaurants with bars continue losing revenue.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 03 2005 @ 04:45 AM MDT
The links were followed and the material read but here's the problem, folks. Steve Barney's material cites scientific studies. We all know studies are general in nature rather tha specific. The fact of the matter is restaurants can and do lose money if a smoking ban is in place. Perhaps not all, but some certainly do. A more even, fair ban like he one in Madison right now is reasonable and the way to go. I'll believe an individual business owner's words any day before I believe a scientific study that does not look at every situation, nor view businesses as anything but a statistic.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 05:41 PM MDT
In addition to its obvious problems, Steve Barney's material also cites a lawmaker who tries to console Madison businessowners by telling them and smokers that the ban stops at the building and customers are free to patronize sidewalk cafes, etc. Wow! There's a consolation. Hello!! We live in Wisconsin where it's cold 4 to 6 months out of the year. So when those people go outside to smoke in the middle of winter, or during any other inclement weather, why are the BFO people and their counterparts in other cities not equally concerned about the affects such weather will have on these people's health?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 08:02 AM MDT
The letter by Steve Barney is filled with nothing but a bunch of crap. Actual testimonials from business owners are more believable than this so-called scientific data that ban proponents can skew any way they want in efforts to prove their point.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
And so based on this argument, the city should NOT inspect restaurants for cleanliness, proper food temerature, proper refrigeration temperature, etc, because if I don't have to go the restaurant if I don't want to?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:19 AM MDT
The city inspects things that the general public can't see when they come into an establishment. I think you can see someone smoking when you come into a restaurant, and you can make a determination if you want to stay or not. Why can't you smoking Nazi's understand that?!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:30 AM MDT
You continue to whittle this down further and further, trying to convince yourself your argument is justified. Your frustration level is indicated by your name calling. The bottom line is there is a smoking ban. The majority of voters voted for it. Deal with it.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:41 AM MDT
There are no names being called. A slim majority of voters voted for it; the judge still maintains it was poorly worded and misleading and the state will no doubt pass something that will basically outlaw this ban and put something else that is more fair in its place. When that happens, we can then sit back and proclaim "Hey, a majority of lawmakers voted for it. Live with it."
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 10:40 AM MDT
"You smoking Nazis..."
What's that? A term of endearment? People fought hard for what they believe in. They went about pursuing a city ordinance a legal way. It failed via the council. They got signatures for a referendum. It passed. A judge ultimately upheld it. And you call those people Nazis. Saying that's not name calling is like saying Ken Bender wasn't name calling when he called certain people 'self righteous assholes.'
The slim majority you referred to is still the majority. The smoking ban stands. Live with it.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 07:53 AM MDT
Hey, we keep talking about Public Health issues with regard to a smoking ban. And you are right, people have choices. Maybe the Breathe Free nazi's want to take a stab at this twist.
You feel that NO ONE should be subjected to second hand smoke, especially those who have been "forced" to work in that environment right?! What about our Fire Fighters,Police Officers, recue squads? What are you Breathe Free people going to do for them, and their work environment? Oh Ya, that's right they may be needed to save your backside, and they wear (some) air masks?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 09:55 AM MDT
This is a wonderful point. Breathe Free Oshkosh maybe doesn't give a damn about them though.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 11:36 AM MDT
do you really not understand the difference between someone who spends their entire 8 (or more) hour shift breathing second hand smoke (waiter) and a firefighter who at times goes into a burning building (and they sure don't spend 8 hours in there) wearing all kinds of protective gear including a mask so they DON'T breathe the smoke. Why do you think the firefighters wear those masks? So they don't have to breathe the SMOKE
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 02:30 PM MDT
They do not always wear masks though, smart-aleck.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 10:25 PM MDT
Really, they go into burning buildings without masks, I doubt it. And surely even you can see the difference between breathing smoke inside a building vs. outside.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:38 AM MDT
I am new to reading these threads and I am amazed at the deterioration from the original comment into just plain nasty talk and name calling.
I have a hard time figuring out why a smoker can't make it through a meal without lighting up. Could it be possible to smoke a cigarette before entering the building and then one after outside the building.
In my family it is not simply the "breathe free" issue, it is simply breathing at that moment. We have severe allergies to smoking and when we are exposed we can't breathe, suffer severe headaches, and skin irritation.
We are a rather large family and if you talk about loss of business, we walk out of a restuarant that can't provide a smoke free enviroment. Typically that is a loss of around $60 for our one table.
If there isn't a ban on smoking, then there should be a requirement to have a separate room with the necessary ventillation to make sure the non-smokers don't have to share in the smoke. Perkins restuarants have such an enclosure.
We do have rights, but sometimes those rights overshadow simple manners, being considerate, and common sense.
Recently we were in a restuarant, seated in the non-smoking section. A man lit up in this section right next to us. When we politely pointed out that this was the non-smoking section, he stated he asked for smoking and was seated here, so he is going to smoke. I left with one of the children. Another table pointed out the same thing and he told them he has a right to smoke. They told him that their child has asthma and she is pregnant. He still argued his rights. They left also. Our family then had to take the dessert that was included in the meal and leave. Simple manners would have dictated that he speak to his waitress and ask to move to the smoking section, but he had his "rights". With no ash trays on the table, common sense would have said, "I am in the wrong section". Being considerate would have been to put the cigarette out when the mistake and health issues were pointed out. Any wonder non-smokers can have a sour taste about smokers rights.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:28 AM MDT
Even Perkins' rooms do not meet the requirements under the Breathe Free smoking ban. Second even the restaurant owners are not so much opposed to a ban, provided their customers can smoke at the bar which is where a lot of money is spent and, in turn, their profit is made. Other than that I agree with you that smokers should be courteous but courtesy is a two way street and the non-smokers need to understand that smoking is not illegal when done in areas where permitted.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 10:09 PM MDT
Legality doesn't always mean right.
Just experienced the arm waving of a smoker and it just about hit a young man in the shorts while he was walking by on the sidewalk this Fourth. Also saw another lean on a chair of a child with her lit cigarette over his head. Also had to have the smoke in our faces as we tried to watch a parade in a crowd. It is just difficult to get away from and makes events unenjoyable. It's a right, but it doesn't need to infringe on the rest of us to be exercised. The rudeness is hard to take and since people, at times, have a hard time governing themselves it requires some laws.
In your home, your car or with others who don't mind smoking, that is fine. But, once you enter a public place have some respect.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 11:01 PM MDT
Respect is always a good thing. But people need to remember that respect for people's rights goes both ways. BFO has insisted from day one on their way and nothing else. That isn't right either.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:35 AM MDT
See there you go again putting words in people's mouths all in an effort to argue, debate and belittle. No one ever said they go INSIDE burning buildings without masks. The comment was made that they don't always wear masls when fighting fires and performing their jobs. The person had also mentioned not just firefighters but police and emergency workers too.
But to address your other point: Quite frankly, if someone is smoking inside a building at a bar where the dining room is elsewhere, it should not disturb anyone. Most people can't even notice the difference. The few people who claim it does bother them (and we all know of one woman from Breathe Free in particular) are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. In fact that same woman already mentioned claims she has problems if she just sees a cigarette butt. imme a break! She needs more than a smoking ban to cure her "ills.'"
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:21 PM MDT
The smoking ban proponents still have not addressed questioned raised in the original note here. Guess they don't have a response and there is a good reason for that. They can not refute the points made and they can not dispute that many restaurants have lost money when a smoking ban is in place, both here and elsewhere. We rest our case.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:49 PM MDT
The research and sales tax receipts say otherwise but as one poster said "I take someone's word over any scientific research" so there is no reason to answer the questions as even scientific evidence is not enough.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:56 PM MDT
Sales receipts show otherwise? Really? Exactly whose sales receipts are you referring to? Because in Oshkosh alone hardship exemptions have been granted because of business loss; savings have been nearly depleted to keep the doors open; wait staff has said how much they've lost in tips due to slumping business after the ban went into effect and a few people lost their jobs. That doesn't even begin to explain the losses in cities that some restaurants have suffered. But yet you claim the sales receipts tell a different tale. Read into it whatever you want until you walk a mile in these business owners' shoes, you are not qualified to speak about whether they've lost business or not.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:37 PM MDT
Some restaurants suck. That's why they are losing business. There is also a portion of the population, on both sides of the issue, that dislikes whiners. Some restaurants in Oshkosh are losing business because their owners are perceived as whiners on the smoking issue...
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:54 PM MDT
Well they apparently didn't SUCK (to quote you) before the ban, so your argument lacks all semblance of logic and you can not prove that is why they are losing business. Your statement about some owners being whiners doesn't hold any water either. These people have been "whining" because their livelihoods are in jeopardy. If you owned a business and did nothing to protect your investment and assets you would be a poor excuse for a business owner. But let's say your statement has even the tiniest smidge of truth to it. How do you explain all the other losses in other communities across the country? There have even been reports of some cities repealing such bans because they caused such loss for their economy.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:07 PM MDT
Competition, that's how it's explained. You can't swing a dead cat by the tail in this town without hitting another restaurant. Have you driven past Kodiak Jacks on a Saturday night? They don't seem to be having any problems. Does anybody have hard data as to the number of restaurant seats in Oshkosh pre-ban and post-ban?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:20 PM MDT
Kodiak Jacks may be a problem right now but they were not even open when the Oshkosh ban first went into effect last year. Therefore, that argument cannot be used as a blanket excuse. Yes we have a lot of restaurants, but we have a lot of bars too. They all seemed to be doing pretty well before this ban.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:32 PM MDT
It has nothing to do with when the ban went into effect: They are bing successful. Other restaurants are being successful. If bars are failing so miserably, why are so many owners literally standing in line to get a liquor license in Oshkosh? With the interest in liquor licenses, it seems we should be charging more money, or auctioning them off to the highest bidders every two years. Do all of these people really want licenses so they can lose money? Common sense tells you no.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:46 PM MDT
We are talking about restaurants with bars.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
The reason liquor licenses are so valuable is it gives an establishment the right to install 5 gambling machines. The dirtly little secret in Oshkosh. That is where the money is made. Without the liquor license the gambling machines are illegal.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:06 AM MDT
Machines or not, if people are so concerned about these "dirty little secrets" report the establishment to the authorities. But the big profit is made with the liquor. Period!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 10:00 AM MDT
You obviously have no clue how much bar owner make on the gambling machines. They make far more on the machines than they do on the liquor.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 12:42 PM MDT
Oh and you would know that how? I can tell you for a fact that is not the case in my establishment.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:00 PM MDT
How many machines do you have, and do you report your income? I am assuming the bar owners who pay out from the "cash box" behind the bar do not.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:28 PM MDT
One machine and everything is reported as it is supposed to be. But you are missing the point about loss of revenue from bar sales when people can not smoke and have a few drinks before or after their meal.I don't think you have the first damn clue how much revenue is lost that way.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:35 PM MDT
well now that's just a whole different legal problem there. we ought to let the better business bureau in on those dirty little secrets. in fact, i think i might do that...
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 02:31 PM MDT
The Better Business Bureau has nothing to do with it and surely with as many law enforcement officers and lawmakers as there are who frequent restaurants throughout the state, if this was a porblem or area of concern for them, fines would be issued and the machines confiscated. We have heard about it ONCE and that was with Tommy Thompson's relative. Evidentally it is not that big of a deal and businesses are not making money hand over fist/ IF they were the department of revenue would be finding a way to get a better handle on these machines and their "dirty little secrets." We need to get back to the discussion of the smoking ban and its overall effects on the restaurant industry here and everywhere.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 02:43 AM MDT
Unless you have compared sales tax receipts for the same period from one year to another you cannot say for sure the ban caused restaurants to lose business, restaurants go under all the time even before there were somking bans anywhere. That is what the scientific research does, factors in everything to determine a cause and effect or a correlation. Just because a restaurant is having financial difficulties you cannot prove it is the smoking ban...to get a hardship exemption in Oshkosh you just have to go in and ask for one, you do not have to show proof of anything.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:10 AM MDT
Ah, but you DO have to have an accountant who has examined your books show that yiou've suffered a loss during that time period. Again, if no businesses have lost money because of a ban (and I'm talking about anywhere, not just in little old Oshkosh) how do you explain the fact that some have even gone out of business? Also, if you are so concerned about the lack of proof that gets one an exemption why did you not work with Breathe Free Oshkosh to make getting one harder?
We keep hearing the economy is getting better so you can't blame business loss on that. So all things being equal business loss has to be attributed to the ban.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:38 AM MDT
Well how would you explain restaurants going out of business before there was any ban? For goodness sakes, businesses are closed every day for a myriad of reasons. The scientific research says no smoking in restaurants increases business I prefer to go with scientific research rather than hearsay.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 12:44 PM MDT
If all things are the same other than a smoking ban and the economy is improving then there is no other reasonable conclusion one could draw. That is why hardship exemptions exist and are set up as they are. But of course you would rather go with suppoed scientific "evidence." That is the only way you can support your argument. Heresay is not heresay when it is the business owner and his or her accountant stating the facts. Get a clue how things work in our system.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 05:47 PM MDT
You are quite correct in your statement. A ban an and does wreak havoc with certain busineses, especially those where they are dependent on the sale of liquor for much of their bottom line. Thanks for stating the obvious (though apparently not to those who choose to only believe scientific data that can be skewed in any way to "prove" one's point).
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:28 AM MDT
I was at The Bar in Appleton last night on College Av. Smoking ban in place, it was a great atmosphere to be in. Great music by a great band, standing room only, and I could actually see across the room and didn't smell like an ashtray when I got home.
Someone made a reference to Kodiak Jack's in an earlier post and commented how even with the ban, their business is thriving. That got me thinking:
Maybe it's the QUALITY of the business that is drawing people or pushing them away, and not the ability to smoke. If a bar or restaurant is only appealing because of your ability to smoke inside, maybe those businesses need to work a little harder to make their businesses more attractive. It's working in the above mentioned examples. Why can't it work other places? You never stay the same. You're either getting better or getting worse. Time for some businesses experiencing 'hardships' to work a little harder to try to get better.
In a letter to the editor of the Oshkosh Northwestern, former school board member Theresa Thiel wrote that in 14 years of research that her father did, he found "no factual evidence that going smoke free caused a restaurant to lose business and in most cases business increased because the vast majority of people are non-smokers (about 75 percent)."
That is very interesting. I wonder how she or he then explain the fact that certain restaurants all over the country
have been granted hardship clauses because they lost business when a ban went into effect. While a majority of people may not smoke it is a fact that most smokers do so while drinking at a bar. That bar money attributes to a large portion of a business's bottom line and that is where they make much of their profit.
It would also be interesting for Mrs. Thiel to explain where she thinks that 25% of smokers go (to use her quoted figures). If that would equate to 25% of a restaurant's business, that would translate to a huge loss. Should we take away 25% of Mrs. Thiel's household income and see how well she and her family manage? These people are just ridiculous when they want to push their agenda.
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 04:42 PM MDT
The thing that all of you anti-smoking ban people miss is that this is a public health issue. Take the health care costs in this country that are a direct result of smoking, and compare them to the lost business you all are so worried about. Revenue lost from restaurants wouldn't touch the health care costs resulting from this life threatening habit. Smoking is such a health risk that on death certificates in the State of Wisconsin, there is a check box to indicate if a person's death was somehow related to smoking. OPEN YOUR EYES!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 06:17 PM MDT
I would hazard I small wager or better yet an educated guess that the person that wrote this is medically over weight. Why would this be a safe and educated guess, because according to the medical literture now out 85% of all adults and even more stagering childhood numbers are obese!
You want to talk about serious healthcare risk and cost, let us tally up ALL the associated costs for people medically over weight. Let's talk about the children in our schools that can barely waddle to the play ground.
I am not suggesting that smoking is a good thing, I even agree that it is a serious health risk, what I am suggesting is that it is not illegal, nor immoral to smoke, that smokers pay very high per pack taxes that off set your overall tax burden, There should be a place set aside for an adult to smoke after a nice dinner. If not then I beleive the only fair thing to do is take all beef products, cheese products, anything sweet or high in calories off the menus, and have the rightous eat in secret and silence!!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 07:46 PM MDT
I'm not a smoker. As a matter of fact, I hate smoking. I think it's a disgusting, stupid habit. I'll go you one better than that, I think smokers are mentally weak people. Smoking is not an addiction, here's proof: A smoker can go with 8 hours of sleep, no cigarette. Wake up, got to have a smoke, and thereafter every hour. If it was an addiction, they'd wake up every hour needing a smoke.
I'm not pro-restaurant either. Some of the tooth and nail smoking ban fighting restaurant owners in this town have a problem. It isn't a smoking ban either. It's the fact that their restaurants or their food sucks, or both, and they have for some time. Business is going down, down, down, while competition is increasing at a fast pace. For them, the smoking ban is nothing but a scapegoat. Some owners are so focused on the scapegoat that I think they are starting to believe even themselves!
But, with all that said, I'm an anti-smoking ban person. I voted against it, and I would again.
This is about liberty.
This is about not being a butt-in-ski. If you don't want to breathe bad air, don't go where the air is bad. It's not your "right" to go to a smoke free restaurant. Too many people misuse that word. Mind your own business, like your mother taught you (or should have). Don't come around with self-righteous crap about smoking being a public health hazard either. Cigarettes are legal products, just like the unhealthy stuff being served inside the restaurants. You don't have a problem with that, do you? No, because YOU like it.
Do you know WHY there is a box for smoking on a Wisconsin death certificate? Because of butt-in-skis like you, that's why. Self-righteous do-gooders petitioned enough spineless state politicians until it got added by law, more than likely. All under the guise of collecting data, to prove how much we need to be protected from ourselves.
What is next after smoking? Will the next check box on the death certificate be "butterburger eater?"
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:02 PM MDT
At least I didn't make you angry. Last time I checked, the recommended daily allowance for fat in a 2000 calorie diet was 80 grams. Not zero. 80. I don't recall seeing that there was a recommendation for the amount of smoke I should inhale, either directly from smoking cigarettes or second hand smoke. Why? BEACUSE THERE IS NONE!
This absolutely is about public health. Are we a little late in the game? Only by a couple of thousand of years. But it is dangerous for all involved nonetheless, and we might as well make it an issue now. Better late than never.
Please tell me how eating a tenderloin at the Roxy with vegetables, rice pilaf and a couple of beers makes me a walking time bomb.
Self righteous. Self righteous. Hmmm. Seems to me I heard that somewhere before. Last night at the council meeting, maybe? Are you two one in the same?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:42 PM MDT
Where on the latest food pyramid or in any RDA does it say that you should have 2 beers? It doesn't, does it? But because you like it, it's OK?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 08:12 AM MDT
I absolutely love the conversation by the rightous about clean air...please define clean air. It DOES NOT exist! Do you drive a car, SUV, do you work in a factory, an office buliding? Do you use aerosal can to spray bugs in your yard, or style your hair? STOP the hypocritical mumbogumbo, You are an offender ever bit as bad as the smoker, and statically your probably obese as well talk about a double righteous whammy.
Maybe you should try living in a bubble, it is the only way to protect you from life, and all it's naste imperfections, and overeating. If you sincerely believe that 80 grams of fat in your daily diet is acceptable you should see a Cariodologist and a serious dietician. That is grossly out of line, unless your an Atkins fad flunky.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 07:27 AM MDT
Ok, then doctor. Please tell me what the USRDA is for fat in a 2000 calorie diet.
It's 80 grams of fat. Do a little research before you make a fool of yourself.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:21 PM MDT
WHAT IS YOUR UPPER LIMIT ON
FAT FOR THE CALORIES YOU
CONSUME?
Total Cal Sat. Fat Total Fat
1,600 18 grams 53 grams
2,000* 20 grams 65 grams
2,200 24 grams 73 grams
2,500* 25 grams 80 grams
2,800 31 grams 93 grams
From US Dept. of Agriculture website www.usda.gov/cnpp/DietGd.pdf (p.30 of report)
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:09 PM MDT
Let us not forget that all of these hypocrite Breathe Free nuts all drive vehicles, some that probably get terrible gas mileage.
Do you know how much it harms the environment to extract and refine oil? Not to mention the Carbon Monoxide that their vehicles spew out every time they start their engines? Everyone has to breathe in their Carbon Monoxide when they drive their vehicles. But it doesn't seem that they're worried about that because it wouldn't be convenient for them to be without their vehicles.
These Breathe Free folk are the height of hypocrisy!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:29 PM MDT
Do you drive a car? Then stop with that argument, hypocrite. Furthermore, take any CO detector and take it outside. What does it read? ZERO.
Another lousy argument. Keep trying.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:55 PM MDT
How is that person being a hypocrite? They don't care about the CO levels in a restaurant or outside. BFO people do care about it inside, but they think it's OK for themselves to pollute the outside. That's being hypocritical...
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:07 PM MDT
To criticize someone for driving a car because of the CO it emits, and then to do it yourself, is being a hypocrite.
This isn't about CO. CO is not a carcinogen. CO is not what kills people when it comes to smoking. It's the destruction of lung tissue that occurs over time. It's the hundreds of chemicals in the smoke that are dangerous. It's the proven risk that occurs with exposure to any type of smoke that is a by product of tobacco.
That's what this is about.
If you want to argue about simple combustion, then let's do it. Do you allow your car to exhaust into the passenger compartment? No. Do you keep the chimney closed when you have a fire in your fireplace? No. Do you have a camp fire in your living room? No. So if you want to smoke, go outside.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 08:29 AM MDT
OK, let's debate the emissions of an internal combustion engine.
Do you really think the emissions of your car engine don't harm everyone? Are you that stupid? Of course the emissions of an internal combustion engine are spread over a much larger area than a cigarette in a restaurant, but it has now been proven that the internal combustion engine and fluorocarbons are eroding the atmosphere of the earth, which in turn erodes the quality of the air that you so preciously talk about here.
Please don't minimize the fact that the vehicle that you drive doesn't harm EVERYONE. Fact is your vehicle is harming other people's clean air, and you're a hypocrite!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:01 AM MDT
Do you start your car and let it run inside your garage? How about your home?
If you want to smoke, go outside. If you want to talk about pollution, start another thread. If you want to make an educated argument....never mind. That'll never happen.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:37 AM MDT
There you go again. Educated arguments were stated originally and the chest-thumping do-gooders can do nothing but continue talking about how it's a public health issue They refuse to answer the questions posed. So don't people don't want to have an educated argument. Perhaps you think it's only educated when their side is in harmony with yours.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:01 AM MDT
There are regulations that pose profit constraints on any business. This, in my opinion, is simply another that is necessary. The ideal situation would be an across the board smoking ban, state wide. Then all restaurants would be on a level playing field. In the absence of that, the locally administered smoking ban will suffice.
<<
<<
How's that?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:37 AM MDT
In case you had not noticed the state is looking at doing that very thing. That should solve the probelm for most. Thought the Breathe Free people will neer be happy with just that. That want everything their way. Compromise is not a word they choose to include in their vocabulary.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 11:57 AM MDT
Of course I noticed the state is pursuing a smoking ban. Hooray!
As far as BFO compromising, and I am asking here, cause I don't know, what compromises were those against the smoking ban willing to make?
BFO brought forth what they thought met their requirements for a smoking ban, and what they thought would not be so restrictive that the citizens wouldn't vote for it. They were right. They won.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:06 PM MDT
I agree with many of your points but smoking is an addiction. Let's use your example about smokers not having to wake up every hour to smoke. Drug addicts or alcoholics don't wake up every hour to get stoned or have another drink. I agree that it is habitual for many, but there is an element of addiction there too. If not the tobacco companies would not have had to pay all that tobacco money.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 09:05 AM MDT
Public health issues notwithstanding, why will you not address the questions posed in the original posting? If smoking bans do not cause restaurant business to be lost how do you explain the fact that so many have lost business, not just in Oshkosh but across the nation? If 25 percent of the population smokes, then it is possible that they are going elsewhere where bans are not in place or where a ban is not as strict as in Oshkosh, making this even more unfair to restaurant owners. The other question you are not answering is, how would you like it if we cut your household income by 25 percent? Tell you what: let's be generous and only cut it by 10 percent. Is that acceptable to you?
Instead of continuing to make the same tired old arguments, why not offer some respectful and reasonable suggestions on how restaurants can get their business back? But please do not do what Margy Davy did by suggesting that one owner turn his establishment into a bar. That is not respectful or reasonable.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 06:59 AM MDT
But the fact of the matter is, if this truly is a public health issue, (and it is), then the loss of revenue is not an argument NOT to have a smoking ban! How much more money could businesses make if there weren't rules regarding waste product emissions? What if they could just dump their junk into the waterways, as in years past? What if they could billow their products of production into thr atmosphere without first reducing the toxins? What if we didn't have to have food inspected? What if grocers could put any old piece of meat on the shelves, without concern regarding it's freshness or age or quality? What if we didn't have to have catalytic converters on cars? These companies would make millions more dollars. But it's not about that! It's about the health issue that exists as a result of smoking.
Go back and read an earlier post of mine: What about the costs to all of us (through health care costs, insurance premiums, etc) who pay for the illnesses created by smoking? Do you really think you and I don't pay for this? If we don't, who does? You see, it's money out of YOUR pocket already! Don't you understand that?
The solution would be a state wide smoking ban, which I hope works out. Do I agree completely with the local ban? Certainly not. But it is better than nothing. So please don't drag the money argument into this. This goes way above that.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:41 AM MDT
So I guess these people's livlihoods should just be flushed down the crapper because of a public health issue, in a place, mind you, that you don't have to go into. That is the point. You have choices. Certain public health issues, like illegal dumping, air quality and the like have rules in place because those things affect everyone. Smoking in a restaurant or at a bar affects only the health of those in that establishment and they have chosen to be there. There is the difference.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:50 AM MDT
I suppose, then, that all the millworkers in the south in the first half of the twentieth century should have not been protected from the destruction of their lungs and the ruin of their health, because (to follow your rationale), they could CHOOSE not to work in the mill? So we shouldn't have enacted health and safety standards in the textile industry because those workers weren't being FORCED to work there?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 01:30 AM MDT
Oh yeah, textile mills in the US becoming unionized and having laws passed to insure the health of the workers. THERE'S a real success story!!!
Where are your clothes made, and worse yet, where do you shop for them?
Oshkosh By GoshNOT.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 07:35 AM MDT
Right, and you shop for all of your clothes at Wal Mart.
Did you read the Northwestern several weeks ago, and see how much Wal Mart alone costs taxpayers in this state every year because of the top notch benefits they provide their employees? So keep shopping at these shops that go out of their way to promote NON ORGANIZED labor. They too are driving your taxes up!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 09:28 AM MDT
At the rate everything keeps going up, including our taxes, and the way wages (for those who manage to stay working) are not keeping up with the cost of living, we can afford to shop owhere BUT WalMart. Sorry but that is the unfortnate reality of everything. I am all for unionized labor but maybe the union leaders need to try harder to stop unrealistic spending by elected officials and to have them do more to encourage jobs in their locales that pay a living wage. Then we could afford to shop somewhere other than WalMart. People shop where the bargains are for a reason. It's called economics.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 11:38 AM MDT
The thing you don't understand is that it is corporations like Wal Mart that contribute to the rise of our taxes! Wal Mart offers such petty benefits to their emplyees, that the state had to pay out 2.7 million dollars in BadgerCare funds last year just to cover the health care costs for Wal Mart employees who didn't have adequate health insurance. So who is paying for their health care? We are! How? Through our taxes!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:01 PM MDT
Yup and we're paying through our taxes for other things some of us didn't want or benefit from either, like all the extra to go along with the bandshell. It would be nice though if we could get back to the point of somebody answering the questioned asked in the original post. This is not supposed to be about WalMart and unionized labor, nor health insurance.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:32 PM MDT
To answer the original question of where do the smokers go...most of them continue to go to their favorite restaurants, they just smoke outside, drive around Oshkosh and you'll see smokers smoking in the parking lot of restaurants. The few smokers who won't go to restaurants are more than made up for by the number of non-smokers who used to stay home but are now eating out. Check out the www.oshkoshnews.org site and read the letter by Steve Barney to Sen. Carol Roessler which seems to confirm Mrs. Theil's comments about business increasing when restaurants go smoke free.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: admin on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 02:04 PM MDT
Yet the restaurants with bars continue losing revenue.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 03 2005 @ 04:45 AM MDT
The links were followed and the material read but here's the problem, folks. Steve Barney's material cites scientific studies. We all know studies are general in nature rather tha specific. The fact of the matter is restaurants can and do lose money if a smoking ban is in place. Perhaps not all, but some certainly do. A more even, fair ban like he one in Madison right now is reasonable and the way to go. I'll believe an individual business owner's words any day before I believe a scientific study that does not look at every situation, nor view businesses as anything but a statistic.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 05:41 PM MDT
In addition to its obvious problems, Steve Barney's material also cites a lawmaker who tries to console Madison businessowners by telling them and smokers that the ban stops at the building and customers are free to patronize sidewalk cafes, etc. Wow! There's a consolation. Hello!! We live in Wisconsin where it's cold 4 to 6 months out of the year. So when those people go outside to smoke in the middle of winter, or during any other inclement weather, why are the BFO people and their counterparts in other cities not equally concerned about the affects such weather will have on these people's health?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 08:02 AM MDT
The letter by Steve Barney is filled with nothing but a bunch of crap. Actual testimonials from business owners are more believable than this so-called scientific data that ban proponents can skew any way they want in efforts to prove their point.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
And so based on this argument, the city should NOT inspect restaurants for cleanliness, proper food temerature, proper refrigeration temperature, etc, because if I don't have to go the restaurant if I don't want to?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:19 AM MDT
The city inspects things that the general public can't see when they come into an establishment. I think you can see someone smoking when you come into a restaurant, and you can make a determination if you want to stay or not. Why can't you smoking Nazi's understand that?!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:30 AM MDT
You continue to whittle this down further and further, trying to convince yourself your argument is justified. Your frustration level is indicated by your name calling. The bottom line is there is a smoking ban. The majority of voters voted for it. Deal with it.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:41 AM MDT
There are no names being called. A slim majority of voters voted for it; the judge still maintains it was poorly worded and misleading and the state will no doubt pass something that will basically outlaw this ban and put something else that is more fair in its place. When that happens, we can then sit back and proclaim "Hey, a majority of lawmakers voted for it. Live with it."
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 10:40 AM MDT
"You smoking Nazis..."
What's that? A term of endearment? People fought hard for what they believe in. They went about pursuing a city ordinance a legal way. It failed via the council. They got signatures for a referendum. It passed. A judge ultimately upheld it. And you call those people Nazis. Saying that's not name calling is like saying Ken Bender wasn't name calling when he called certain people 'self righteous assholes.'
The slim majority you referred to is still the majority. The smoking ban stands. Live with it.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 07:53 AM MDT
Hey, we keep talking about Public Health issues with regard to a smoking ban. And you are right, people have choices. Maybe the Breathe Free nazi's want to take a stab at this twist.
You feel that NO ONE should be subjected to second hand smoke, especially those who have been "forced" to work in that environment right?! What about our Fire Fighters,Police Officers, recue squads? What are you Breathe Free people going to do for them, and their work environment? Oh Ya, that's right they may be needed to save your backside, and they wear (some) air masks?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 09:55 AM MDT
This is a wonderful point. Breathe Free Oshkosh maybe doesn't give a damn about them though.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 11:36 AM MDT
do you really not understand the difference between someone who spends their entire 8 (or more) hour shift breathing second hand smoke (waiter) and a firefighter who at times goes into a burning building (and they sure don't spend 8 hours in there) wearing all kinds of protective gear including a mask so they DON'T breathe the smoke. Why do you think the firefighters wear those masks? So they don't have to breathe the SMOKE
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 02:30 PM MDT
They do not always wear masks though, smart-aleck.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 10:25 PM MDT
Really, they go into burning buildings without masks, I doubt it. And surely even you can see the difference between breathing smoke inside a building vs. outside.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:38 AM MDT
I am new to reading these threads and I am amazed at the deterioration from the original comment into just plain nasty talk and name calling.
I have a hard time figuring out why a smoker can't make it through a meal without lighting up. Could it be possible to smoke a cigarette before entering the building and then one after outside the building.
In my family it is not simply the "breathe free" issue, it is simply breathing at that moment. We have severe allergies to smoking and when we are exposed we can't breathe, suffer severe headaches, and skin irritation.
We are a rather large family and if you talk about loss of business, we walk out of a restuarant that can't provide a smoke free enviroment. Typically that is a loss of around $60 for our one table.
If there isn't a ban on smoking, then there should be a requirement to have a separate room with the necessary ventillation to make sure the non-smokers don't have to share in the smoke. Perkins restuarants have such an enclosure.
We do have rights, but sometimes those rights overshadow simple manners, being considerate, and common sense.
Recently we were in a restuarant, seated in the non-smoking section. A man lit up in this section right next to us. When we politely pointed out that this was the non-smoking section, he stated he asked for smoking and was seated here, so he is going to smoke. I left with one of the children. Another table pointed out the same thing and he told them he has a right to smoke. They told him that their child has asthma and she is pregnant. He still argued his rights. They left also. Our family then had to take the dessert that was included in the meal and leave. Simple manners would have dictated that he speak to his waitress and ask to move to the smoking section, but he had his "rights". With no ash trays on the table, common sense would have said, "I am in the wrong section". Being considerate would have been to put the cigarette out when the mistake and health issues were pointed out. Any wonder non-smokers can have a sour taste about smokers rights.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:28 AM MDT
Even Perkins' rooms do not meet the requirements under the Breathe Free smoking ban. Second even the restaurant owners are not so much opposed to a ban, provided their customers can smoke at the bar which is where a lot of money is spent and, in turn, their profit is made. Other than that I agree with you that smokers should be courteous but courtesy is a two way street and the non-smokers need to understand that smoking is not illegal when done in areas where permitted.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 10:09 PM MDT
Legality doesn't always mean right.
Just experienced the arm waving of a smoker and it just about hit a young man in the shorts while he was walking by on the sidewalk this Fourth. Also saw another lean on a chair of a child with her lit cigarette over his head. Also had to have the smoke in our faces as we tried to watch a parade in a crowd. It is just difficult to get away from and makes events unenjoyable. It's a right, but it doesn't need to infringe on the rest of us to be exercised. The rudeness is hard to take and since people, at times, have a hard time governing themselves it requires some laws.
In your home, your car or with others who don't mind smoking, that is fine. But, once you enter a public place have some respect.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 11:01 PM MDT
Respect is always a good thing. But people need to remember that respect for people's rights goes both ways. BFO has insisted from day one on their way and nothing else. That isn't right either.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:35 AM MDT
See there you go again putting words in people's mouths all in an effort to argue, debate and belittle. No one ever said they go INSIDE burning buildings without masks. The comment was made that they don't always wear masls when fighting fires and performing their jobs. The person had also mentioned not just firefighters but police and emergency workers too.
But to address your other point: Quite frankly, if someone is smoking inside a building at a bar where the dining room is elsewhere, it should not disturb anyone. Most people can't even notice the difference. The few people who claim it does bother them (and we all know of one woman from Breathe Free in particular) are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. In fact that same woman already mentioned claims she has problems if she just sees a cigarette butt. imme a break! She needs more than a smoking ban to cure her "ills.'"
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:21 PM MDT
The smoking ban proponents still have not addressed questioned raised in the original note here. Guess they don't have a response and there is a good reason for that. They can not refute the points made and they can not dispute that many restaurants have lost money when a smoking ban is in place, both here and elsewhere. We rest our case.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:49 PM MDT
The research and sales tax receipts say otherwise but as one poster said "I take someone's word over any scientific research" so there is no reason to answer the questions as even scientific evidence is not enough.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:56 PM MDT
Sales receipts show otherwise? Really? Exactly whose sales receipts are you referring to? Because in Oshkosh alone hardship exemptions have been granted because of business loss; savings have been nearly depleted to keep the doors open; wait staff has said how much they've lost in tips due to slumping business after the ban went into effect and a few people lost their jobs. That doesn't even begin to explain the losses in cities that some restaurants have suffered. But yet you claim the sales receipts tell a different tale. Read into it whatever you want until you walk a mile in these business owners' shoes, you are not qualified to speak about whether they've lost business or not.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:37 PM MDT
Some restaurants suck. That's why they are losing business. There is also a portion of the population, on both sides of the issue, that dislikes whiners. Some restaurants in Oshkosh are losing business because their owners are perceived as whiners on the smoking issue...
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:54 PM MDT
Well they apparently didn't SUCK (to quote you) before the ban, so your argument lacks all semblance of logic and you can not prove that is why they are losing business. Your statement about some owners being whiners doesn't hold any water either. These people have been "whining" because their livelihoods are in jeopardy. If you owned a business and did nothing to protect your investment and assets you would be a poor excuse for a business owner. But let's say your statement has even the tiniest smidge of truth to it. How do you explain all the other losses in other communities across the country? There have even been reports of some cities repealing such bans because they caused such loss for their economy.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:07 PM MDT
Competition, that's how it's explained. You can't swing a dead cat by the tail in this town without hitting another restaurant. Have you driven past Kodiak Jacks on a Saturday night? They don't seem to be having any problems. Does anybody have hard data as to the number of restaurant seats in Oshkosh pre-ban and post-ban?
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:20 PM MDT
Kodiak Jacks may be a problem right now but they were not even open when the Oshkosh ban first went into effect last year. Therefore, that argument cannot be used as a blanket excuse. Yes we have a lot of restaurants, but we have a lot of bars too. They all seemed to be doing pretty well before this ban.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:32 PM MDT
It has nothing to do with when the ban went into effect: They are bing successful. Other restaurants are being successful. If bars are failing so miserably, why are so many owners literally standing in line to get a liquor license in Oshkosh? With the interest in liquor licenses, it seems we should be charging more money, or auctioning them off to the highest bidders every two years. Do all of these people really want licenses so they can lose money? Common sense tells you no.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:46 PM MDT
We are talking about restaurants with bars.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
The reason liquor licenses are so valuable is it gives an establishment the right to install 5 gambling machines. The dirtly little secret in Oshkosh. That is where the money is made. Without the liquor license the gambling machines are illegal.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:06 AM MDT
Machines or not, if people are so concerned about these "dirty little secrets" report the establishment to the authorities. But the big profit is made with the liquor. Period!
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 10:00 AM MDT
You obviously have no clue how much bar owner make on the gambling machines. They make far more on the machines than they do on the liquor.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 12:42 PM MDT
Oh and you would know that how? I can tell you for a fact that is not the case in my establishment.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:00 PM MDT
How many machines do you have, and do you report your income? I am assuming the bar owners who pay out from the "cash box" behind the bar do not.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:28 PM MDT
One machine and everything is reported as it is supposed to be. But you are missing the point about loss of revenue from bar sales when people can not smoke and have a few drinks before or after their meal.I don't think you have the first damn clue how much revenue is lost that way.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:35 PM MDT
well now that's just a whole different legal problem there. we ought to let the better business bureau in on those dirty little secrets. in fact, i think i might do that...
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 02:31 PM MDT
The Better Business Bureau has nothing to do with it and surely with as many law enforcement officers and lawmakers as there are who frequent restaurants throughout the state, if this was a porblem or area of concern for them, fines would be issued and the machines confiscated. We have heard about it ONCE and that was with Tommy Thompson's relative. Evidentally it is not that big of a deal and businesses are not making money hand over fist/ IF they were the department of revenue would be finding a way to get a better handle on these machines and their "dirty little secrets." We need to get back to the discussion of the smoking ban and its overall effects on the restaurant industry here and everywhere.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 02:43 AM MDT
Unless you have compared sales tax receipts for the same period from one year to another you cannot say for sure the ban caused restaurants to lose business, restaurants go under all the time even before there were somking bans anywhere. That is what the scientific research does, factors in everything to determine a cause and effect or a correlation. Just because a restaurant is having financial difficulties you cannot prove it is the smoking ban...to get a hardship exemption in Oshkosh you just have to go in and ask for one, you do not have to show proof of anything.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:10 AM MDT
Ah, but you DO have to have an accountant who has examined your books show that yiou've suffered a loss during that time period. Again, if no businesses have lost money because of a ban (and I'm talking about anywhere, not just in little old Oshkosh) how do you explain the fact that some have even gone out of business? Also, if you are so concerned about the lack of proof that gets one an exemption why did you not work with Breathe Free Oshkosh to make getting one harder?
We keep hearing the economy is getting better so you can't blame business loss on that. So all things being equal business loss has to be attributed to the ban.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:38 AM MDT
Well how would you explain restaurants going out of business before there was any ban? For goodness sakes, businesses are closed every day for a myriad of reasons. The scientific research says no smoking in restaurants increases business I prefer to go with scientific research rather than hearsay.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 12:44 PM MDT
If all things are the same other than a smoking ban and the economy is improving then there is no other reasonable conclusion one could draw. That is why hardship exemptions exist and are set up as they are. But of course you would rather go with suppoed scientific "evidence." That is the only way you can support your argument. Heresay is not heresay when it is the business owner and his or her accountant stating the facts. Get a clue how things work in our system.
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 05:47 PM MDT
You are quite correct in your statement. A ban an and does wreak havoc with certain busineses, especially those where they are dependent on the sale of liquor for much of their bottom line. Thanks for stating the obvious (though apparently not to those who choose to only believe scientific data that can be skewed in any way to "prove" one's point).
Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:28 AM MDT
I was at The Bar in Appleton last night on College Av. Smoking ban in place, it was a great atmosphere to be in. Great music by a great band, standing room only, and I could actually see across the room and didn't smell like an ashtray when I got home.
Someone made a reference to Kodiak Jack's in an earlier post and commented how even with the ban, their business is thriving. That got me thinking:
Maybe it's the QUALITY of the business that is drawing people or pushing them away, and not the ability to smoke. If a bar or restaurant is only appealing because of your ability to smoke inside, maybe those businesses need to work a little harder to make their businesses more attractive. It's working in the above mentioned examples. Why can't it work other places? You never stay the same. You're either getting better or getting worse. Time for some businesses experiencing 'hardships' to work a little harder to try to get better.
posted by Cheryl Hentz at 5:32 PM
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