Out of touch Oshkosh
Contributed by: Jim B.
Great timing by the Northwestern and the City to bring up the need for permits and fences for all of the temporary pools popping up all over the place. Now let me see if I have this straight, the City of Oshkosh won't budget the money for a pool facility. But now they want to make people pay for putting up removable pools on their own private property? And also make people install fencing? Has it occurred to anyone that this again affects mostly low income residents who can't afford a pool pass at the surrounding pools outside our community? It just keeps getting harder and harder to support this city and its backward ways, and want to stay here.
My family bought the $160 pass at Omro to enjoy their aquatic center this Summer. We have used it many times already, but I can see how $160 would be a burden for many. When we inquired about the price at Omro City Hall, we we re told the resident price is $80. After asking why so much for non-residents, the clerk told us that Omro approached surrounding cities including Oshkosh to ask for help in the cost of running the pool for a decreased annual fee to non-residents. Oshkosh turned them down.
"Oshkosh on ther Water" - One Beach, no pools, but we got splash pads.
What a joke!!!!
Jim B.
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 01:13 PM MDT
And then you wonder why the state wants to take more and more power away from the local boards and councils that clearly have very little vision !!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: admin on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 01:24 PM MDT
Jim, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. While I understand the need for safety when there is a pool in your yard, it seems like the city requires people to jump through a lot of hoops in order to get the necessary approval for a portable type pool. Make people put up a fence around some of these pools and be done with it. All the rest, like site plans and so on and so forth seems a bit much, especially for something that is portable, inflatable and only up a few months at best.
Interesting how Oshkosh apparently turned Omro down after doing away with our own pool. But I will say this about gifts given to the city, like Pollock Pool was. If there was ever a reason for a surcharge at the amphitheater to help cover ongoing maintenance and perpetual care, the demise of Pollock Pool would be it. This memorial pool was a gift to the city, yet not taken care of over the years the way it should have been. If we set money aside specifically for ongoing care of the amphitheater, it should not face the same death our municipal pool did.
- Cheryl Hentz
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 02:49 PM MDT
I am relatively new to Oshkosh. I am from the Lake Michigan shoreline and am not used to paying to use a beach. Because of the limited hours, 1pm opening, and my family's schedule, I cannot use the beach, nor can my family pay $10 a visit (or the annual pass) to a crowded beach. It would be cheaper for us to buy a portable pool for $50 to $100 dollars that we would have every summer. Unfortunately we cannot afford the additional charges of a pool permit, fence permit, wiring, and fencing. We cannot afford, nor have time for, the YMCA as their open swim times conflict with other obligations.
Even more depressing is the sight of the Pollack Pool behind Oshkosh West High School. I am surprised that this pool wasn’t kept up and kept open. It looks like it was nice at one time. I hope the amphitheater doesn’t go the same way.
I guess we all should be grateful that the beach stayed open. The county didn’t want the headache of maintaining the “County” beach so they dumped it on the school district, specifically the recreation department. If it wasn’t for the school board footing the $50,000 tab this year, the county would have closed down the “County” beach.
While I like the idea of establishing deep roots here and being a part of the growth of Oshkosh, I am saddened by the limited care the city council and county board give to their constituents. The time may come where it will be just too expensive to live here and no reasons to stay. I think it is time for the public to take back their city.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 03:36 PM MDT
Truer words have never been spoken about taking back our city.
[ Reply to This | Delete ]
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 02:03 PM MDT
Who ever said the County Beach would close if the school district would not provide Lifeguard services is very very much misinformed.
It was something that the two groups had been working on for two years- Pollack Pool was closed last summer as you may remember.
Get your facts straight before making such accusations- and get them from direct sources not from unimformed sources.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 04:08 PM MDT
I watched the school board meeting in which they caved in to the county and gave the $50.000.00 for the life guards. It was the last chance for the beach to be open for the summer. If the school board had voted no the beach would have closed.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 15 2005 @ 01:46 AM MDT
Piss on your starving kids, aids etc!!! How about helping our own that really need help???!!!!!!!!! This city thinks it has an unlimited bank account and can keep spending freely!!! I don't know about you but I get a .50 cent raise a year and I'll let it be known I'm happy to have a job in this town but this ampitheater and other crap is BS!!! And another thing? Where is all the tax money from all the new 250,000 and above dollar homes going?? Someones pocket I imagine!!!!!!!!!!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 15 2005 @ 10:10 AM MDT
Most of the 250,000+ homes being built are NOT in the city limits. Move on out to the Town of Algoma where you won't get taxed to death.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:13 PM MDT
yeah! revolution, man! let's fight back!
forget about starving kids, homeless people and preventing hiv/aids! let's get a pool!
leave revolutions to the truly oppressed.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:18 PM MDT
Oh for God's sake. Stop being so melodramatic. No one said people were forgetting about these things, and we all do what we can. But if we don't have things for our kids to do, it is a proven fact they will get into trouble doing something else.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 05:12 PM MDT
Not to mention that we are not going to solve such golbal problems locally, especially with a few hundred thousand dollars it would take to fix up the existing pool or a few million it would take to build a new one as some private people are considering.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 09:16 AM MDT
I couldnt agree more. How much did we spend for the "Puke Fest" Auditorium? And we cant spend a nickle for the kids of Oshkosh.? If the Leach family wanted to do something nice for Oshkosh, why didnt they specify the money be used for a water park.
Instead we have a place for "rich" people to go on
Thursday nites, and park their boats. When most of the "rich" are smart enuff to live outside the city limits. IE they dont pay the high taxes the working dummies do.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 09:41 AM MDT
More class warfare! Don't "rich people" swim? What is the obsession with swimming in this city? The Leach is much better for this city than a pool.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Jim B. on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 10:38 AM MDT
Getting back to my original post, this is not about class warfare. It is about quality of life. Take a look at our surrounding communities, and you will find swimming facilities in almost everyone(some have multiple facilities). Go beyond that and look at communities all over the Midwest. Why do all of these communities feel there is a need and Oshkosh doesnt?
The Leach and this issue have nothing to do with one another. A pool would be a welcome addition to our community as is the ampitheater.
Why is is necessary to always play the class warfare card?
Jim B.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 03:08 PM MDT
Where is Oshkosh Motor Truck? They could donate a pool to Oshkosh and it wouldn't even make a dent in its profits. Paul E. said there is a committee formed to raise $16 million of private funds for a pool. Lets get some pub. on this!!!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 10:12 AM MDT
If someone wishes to have a pool in the City, start a campaign and raise the money.....Rather than tell others to do it and how Leach should have done something else with their donation, why don't you donate money??
Why is it people criticize the "City" for not having a pool but "we" are the City.....It is too easy to arm chair quarterback while their is nothing preventing others from generating change!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 10:51 AM MDT
Citizens have told the city administration and council members we want a pool. But the council has made a decision NOT to keep one. This is not what the citizens want. We want a pool and we've said we don't mind paying for it. If in doubt about that out it to a vote. What we don't want is some of the other stuff. But since we ARE the city, we can criticize anything we want about what's going on that we pay for.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:20 AM MDT
If you want a pool, get the people together who want the pool and create an organization. Divide the number of families into the overall cost of a pool, and that is the stock 'buy in' price to get into the organization that owns the pool. Your yearly family fees are determined by the yearly overhead costs to run the pool, pay the lifeguards, etc. When you want out of the organization, someone else buys your stock. Madison does it this way. No tax money spent on it whatsoever.
We have moved to the era of user fees for things that aren't used by everyone-- yard waste disposal, boat launching, etc. Why should I as a tax payer have to pay for a pool for YOU to use when I have no interest in using it myself?
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:31 AM MDT
What a pompous and unrealistic attitude. But if that's what you would like then those of us who don't want the ampitheater nor plan to use it should be able to opt out of it, right? Right! Perhaps we should run all of our parks department amenities with user fees as you are suggesting. How about the streets too. We can set up toll booths on each road and if you use the street, you pay to drive down it. If not, you don't have to pay. Same with police and fire. If you use the services, you get a bill; if not, you don't pay. Aren't user fees grand!!
The simple fact of the matter is that things would never get paid for that way and we would lose even the basic of services. But I like your way of thinking; I could sure as hell save tons on my tax bill every year.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:42 AM MDT
You are the one that is out of touch. This is not the same issue as the amphitheater. The costs associated with the amphitheater were to build it, not maintain it. There are user fees in place that will cover the cost of the operation of the amphitheater. Once built, the amphitheater will cost the city no more to maintain than any of the other parks that already exist. The 'user fees' for people paying admission to the theater cover the operating costs.
Pools are notorious for costing a fortune. The money generated by the daily admission costs do little to cover the cost of running the establishment. Pools invariably are money holes that have tons of money poured into them. And if you want one so badly, pay for it.
You show me one person in this fine city that doesn't use a road. Tolls, therefore, are not required. Everyone uses them. Everyone pays for them.
The police are able to generate revenue by citations they write. The fire dept does the same, with ambulance fees. A huge push for the fire dept lately has been to expand its ambulance business to generate more revenue! But beyond that, these are public safety issues, and not a luxury, like a pool. The protection they offer is there for EVERYONE in this city, and so everyone should pay for them to be at the ready. Furthermore, their efficiency, which is paid for by your tax dollars, keeps other costs to you down-- insurance costs, primarily. Crime rates, response times, location of fire hydrants, etc all figure into your insurance bill.
So you give bad examples, but you make a nice try. Keep working on it.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:57 AM MDT
Let's clear a few things up right now. First, as of this moment there are NO user fees in place. The city council has not yet voted on any such fee. Second, the taxes associated with the bandhsell were to build things around it, not pay for the actual structure itself. The Leach family did that. But let's say you were right in that the taxes were used to build it. Then we should use tax dollars also to build a municipal pool.
Third, how do you know that years down the road the bandhsell will not cost the taxpayers anything? The pool once paid for itself too ut things and times change. Don't make sweeping statements about the future unless you are clairvoyant.
As far as streets, I think the point was you only pay for the roads you go down. There are a lot of streets many of us don't drive on. Hell some of the roads we've never even heard of. Yet our taxes go to pay for a portion of them. So by all means, let's set up toll booths on each street and charge people for only the roads they use.
Next item you mentioned were the police and fire department. While it is true they generate revenue with citations, if you think for one second that those citations pay for everything these departments do you are more wet than you would be if went swimming in a municipal pool, if we had one. Take a look at oyur tax bill, if you're even a property owner in the city, and you will see that each and every property owner is paying for police and fire protection through their property taxes.
Police and fire may be public safety issues, but swimming is a public health issue. Check out the research and you will see all the added benefits to one's health that are derived from simming. Oh, maybe we can get Breathe Free Oshkosh involved since they love public health issues. They could call themselves Swim Free Oshkosh.
Finally, my examples stand. You want people to pay for those things they use? Great! I am behind the concept. But as was originally stated, thigns would never get paid for that way. So let's then use your needs versus luxury items theory. Having a bandshell is not a need. It is a luxury. Only those then using it or wanting it should pay for it and the rest of it should be able to opt out.
Your argument loses. Mine wins!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:03 PM MDT
I have a great idea. If the pool is going to be so beneficial towards citizens' health, I have a much cheaper way to handle this. Instead of a pool, build a track. Way cheaper. Much less costly to run. Beneficial because it provides a means for exercise, but doesn't have the overhead costs that a pool does.
Again, you make a poor argument. I declare myself the winner.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:45 PM MDT
Ask any doctor and I'm sure you'll learn that swimming is better for one's health than running. But perhaps not in your book.
Before you go declaring yourself the winner of this debate I hasten to remind you that you still have failed to address the issue of why it's not okay for tax dollars to be spent on a pool but it is okay for them to be spent on a bandshell.
Hmm...(tapping one's foot waiting for the answer that I feel certain will be laughable).
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 01:06 PM MDT
I wonder if this is the same person that is tapping their foot (probably doesn't have any real work to do) that criticizes the Leach's for their donation and puts down the family that owns majority of BGosh for "leaving".....I wonder how many they employ? Probably none since they have time to tap their foot before they cash their welfare check!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 01:47 PM MDT
It really does not matter how many they employ or if they are a business owner. They are a concerned taxpayer interested in fairness, especially when they're probably feeling overtaxed like so many of us. You act very smug and can maybe afford things but while you are busy trying to put others down for their opinions why don't you step out from behind your checkbook and see that not everyone can afford the luxury items you thing are necesary.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:39 AM MDT
The person who suggested that no tax money is spent on a municipal pool in Madison is simply not correct; not even close. Refer to this link, a story written at the end of 2004, which talks about the city kicking in money and other private funds being raised for the city's first-ever municipal pool.
http://badgerherald.com/news/2004/12/01/city_receives_3_new_.php
This is a far cry from what the person making the comment on here wants people to believe.
I also agree 100% with the other person who sgueested we pay for all of our services and streets, parks and other amenities with user fees. That will lower our tax bills significantly. I'm all for it.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:45 AM MDT
the city's FIRST EVER municipal pool. But they have several that are privately owned, in the manner I described. Want me to name them?
Ridgewood, ParkCrest, West Side, Hill Farms, High Point...
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:01 PM MDT
Those may be little subdivisions or what have you. But the point remains that the city has a municipal pool. If he people in Madison wnated something above and beyond that, as they apparently did, they should pay for it. We are talking about a municipal pool for Oshkosh, just like so many other communities have. You can't see the difference because you don't want to see the difference. You sound like Bryan Bain on the city council or one of his crowd.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:10 PM MDT
So how do you know the people of Oshkosh want a pool? Because of what you heard on the street? There's a term for that-- it's called 'anecdotal.' You have nothing to back your argument for a pool. You have no statistics to argue that a majority of people in this city want a pool. Understandably, I don't have any information to the contrary. But since you're the one who wants to spend tax money on this pool that everyone wants, prove it. Show us some statistics. Better yet-- put it on the ballot. If the majority vote in favor of it, then let's spend our tax money on it! That's how a democracy works.
(Wait a minute. You're part of the crowd that is conviced that the smoking ban is wrong/failed/illegal, even tho the majority voted for it. We could never use the same method to determine if we really want a pool, could we? It would just be a big lie, like the smoking ban....)
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:41 PM MDT
Great idea! Let's put in on a ballot. By the way, since you seem to be of the opinion that we should do quality of life type things by referendum vote only, where was the ballot for the amphitheater? We don't know that a majority of taxpayers wanted it, but we all are getting stuck paying for it. Who is NOT paying for it though are a lot of the hoity-toity people from out of town who will never have to pay a thing for it, unless it is a dollar per ticket more for the upkeep. But that's hardly the same thing as chipping in to pay millions toward it.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 02:04 PM MDT
I am the person from the post you responded to, and I agree! Let's have a vote on the amphitheater. I have no problem with that. We can vote if we want to accept that money and add to the infrastructure to build it. Same goes for the fishing pier OSFC wants to donate.
Of course, it doesn't make practical sense to have referenda on all of these issues. That's why we have the council-- we vote for them to make these decisions, as to whether or not our tax money should be spent this way.
This forum is so predictable, and it's so fun to put the opposite spin on things just to get your goat. Most of the readers here love to complain about city hall, hate the smoking ban, want a pool, and hate the amphitheater. They complain of the likes of Bryan Bain, and Shirley Mattox, and Bill Castle. And these complainers are in the minority.
Bill Castle and Shirley Mattox keep getting re-elected. The smoking ban passed. The amphitheater was built. And there is no talk of putting in a pool. And yet so many of the responses about ANYTHING in this forum always come back to those issues. Important issues? They are to you! But how come your arguments never make it anywhere past this forum? How come you're always in the minority?
I will continue to debate the unpopular. It is so much fun to throw that fuel on the fire and generate some dialog. If we all agreed, this forum wouldn't be any fun!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 02:14 PM MDT
You will continue to debate the unpopular? More smugness from the upper crust of blue-collar Oshkosh. Instead of debating the unpopular why don't you TRY if you have the wherewithall to do so, to imagine what it is like for someone with not nearly as many resources as yourself. Instead you make light of things like that. Your attitude is disgusting and yet all your want to do is get someone's goat. I guess that's about all you have left to get since our money is quickly disappearing from pocketooks and checkbooks.
When it comes to elections I would not be so arrogant either about those who keep getting reelected. After people's taxes go up because of the reassessments (and the people who are hurt the worst are the ones in the inner city who can afford it the least) we will see who gets reelcted and who doesn't. A lot can change in 9 months time.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 03:44 PM MDT
How typical of you. Read further into my post. I will debate the unpopular--play the devil's advocate, so to speak, because if we all agreed, this forum wouldn't be any fun.
You respond to every post of mine by calling me smug, arrogant, pompous, etc. And upper crust? Please. Where did you come up with that? Maybe you ought to look in the mirror.
You do bring up an interesting point: Blue Collar Oshkosh. One of the huge problems facing this city is its blue collar appearance. Larger scale businesses and stores won't come to Oshkosh. Why not? Too blue collar. So there is this huge push, and appropriately so, in my opinion, to do things that will remove the blue collar tag from our city. Examples? The amphitheater. The resort (five something-or-other; at a loss for the name). Downtown investment. So to make this city move forward, we need to pursue these things that deal with these issues-- things that will make our city more attractive. And we're doing it. But not with the help of people like you. Sure, streets are important, and a pool even, if that's what the people want. But we also need progress that's going to attract people. Businesses are not interested in the diatribe of failing to progress a city and instead only spending money on the things that need to be fixed up. It's a good thing the council has taken in this appropriate direction. The progress is beginning to show already.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 06:11 PM MDT
This city survived for decades on its blue collar roots. Those of us who were raised here are proud of our heritage. If you don't like the blue collar atmosphere (1) why did you come here in the first place and (2) why do you stay here?
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 06:53 PM MDT
I came to Oshkosh because 1) I am a city employee and 2) I like taking your tax money.
Come on. I said nothing about doing away with the blue collar mentality. And the fact of the matter is, cities in this day and age are struggling with loss of shared revenue and concerns about increasing costs across the board. The solution? Attract people/businesses/stores to the city to allow the tax base to grow. An overall blue collar mentailty doesn't work well with that type of agenda. We need a healthy mix of all types of lifestyles. That is what I am proposing. Oshkosh is not going to survive if it doesn't do things to attract tax base. If you think otherwise you are in for a surprise.
It's time to think outside the box. Let's look at ways that will encourage people to come to our city. Nice streets are important, but they don't attract businesses. Arts, culture, good schools and smart growth attract people. We need an intelligent mix to our spending, not just constant repair to our infrastructure. To completely put all of our eggs in that basket is a mistake. The smart decisions made by city officials in the last several years are taking us in the right direction.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 07:55 PM MDT
If you say so. I guess that's why new businesses, restaurants and the like are all going to the south and north. Great plan!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 08:29 PM MDT
Why are they? Cause we're a blue collar town!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
That's not the reason at all, oh wise one. This town used to be a lot more blue collar than it is today and we had more opportunities to shop, many of them large chain, anchor stores; and we had one of the first indoor malls in the nation. We also had restaurants like Long John Silvers and I believe even a Red Lobster. But with the Fox River Mall going up north to Grand Chute (see previus psots as to why!) we have lost a lot of things - many of which we will never get back, no matter how much progress you put into downtown. But even if we improve things a little bit we will always be behind the 8 ball in comprison to other surrounding cities and towns. Oshkosh loses. Everyone else wins. But go ahead and keep throwing good money after bad, especially downtown. Gives us more reason to say "we told you so" when it doesn't work.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 10:11 AM MDT
1) You are clueless if you dont think a pool will be built. The 3 sites on the board are Pollack, South Park, and where the city center is.
2)We are not a blue collar town. Rockwell or whatever they are called this year employees a quarter of what they once did at $5 an hour less than they once paid. Morgan door that once had over 1000 employees now has 250-300. Square D is gone. Leach is gone. We are a retail town of little shops and retail jobs. Hence the lack of money is this town !! We keep building grocery stores and retail chains.
Why wont big business come here ?
No ammenities. And thats what a pool, an theater, the Grand, 5 Rivers, etc offer. Things for people to do and see !! If you cant comprehend this then please stop wasting our time by posting on this site !!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 07:32 PM MDT
LOL, you're missing the point. Let me rephrase what I mean by blue collar. For the most part, cheap. Not necessarily in a bad way. But that is why ShopKo, Wal Mart, K Mart and Target survive, and you don't see shops like Old Navy, the Gap, Marshall Fields, etc. Oshkosh is seen by corporate America as cheap. Deny it all you want, it's a fact.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 09:54 PM MDT
You could always join the country club. They have a really nice, brand new pool!! You can be a "social" member if you don't golf.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 11 2005 @ 10:29 AM MDT
Cheap ?.......How do you spend money you dont have , or simply cant make ? ?
Talk about missing the point !!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 11 2005 @ 06:05 PM MDT
Now back to the subject of the pool... My son is a student at South Park Middle School. He is the site council there. One of his projects that he was working on was re-opening up the South Park Pool. He told me that the the council said that it would cost more to shut it down completely (Note: Right now it still has water in it but they are just not heating it) than re-open that rest of it. When my children were young they had open swimming and swimming lessons too at the Pool in the summer. So, we have a pool why not open it up to the students and the public again?!? It would not solve the immediate problem, but would help some-what. What do you people think about this?
Dennis S.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 11:38 AM MDT
Let's compare this thread to the one about the amphitheater bathrooms. The leak is out that a group in Oshkosh is looking at putting in an aquatic center, to the tune of several million dollars. Most of the money will be donated. But the city will have to kick in hundreds of thousands of dollars in infrastructure. What are your thoughts on that? Sounds an awful lot like the bathrooms at the theater, don't you think? Keep the bid waiving argument out of this, ans stick to the argument about the infrastructure upgrades around the theater, and the bathrooms themselves. Should we or shouldn't we, when it comes to the pool? All of you arrogant citizens screaming that the bathrooms were unnecessary should probably be screaming the same tune when it comes to TAX MONEY (gasp!) being spent on this non-essential piece of entertainment!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 12:30 PM MDT
Where do you get off calling concerned citizens "arrogant?" Someone who would so such a thing is obviously arrogant themselves, not to mention uninformed and unconcerned about how the majority of citizens in Oshkosh live. Go talk to someone who gives a damn about you.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 02:35 PM MDT
Where were you a week ago when words like arrogant were flying all over the place? You were the one who was calling me arrogant! So now you're not only arrogant, you're a hypocrite!
By the way, my wife left me and my kids hate me because they say I am too self centered.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 03:46 PM MDT
Good for your wife and kids.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 05:36 AM MDT
I've seen better behavior at local day care centers.
Can't we once stick the the subject at hand?? Get a life!!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 01:58 PM MDT
I would hope that the group formed to create a water park would consider placing the park at the Winnebago County Park.
There is plenty of room to expand an easily accessible for all around to get to.
One knock on the County Park is that it’s too far for children to get there by bikes. But that argument could be used for any proposed site, for if built at the old pool site how could someone living across town or the highway be able to get to the water park by use of a bike.
A bus route could be altered to have children and adults alike dropped off right at the door of the water park. And by building it at the County Park families and individuals could be involved in many activities besides swimming while at the County Park.
The water park will need professional staff to maintain it; the County parks staff has that expertise. And with the school district possibly providing the lifeguards the whole area could be part of this project.
By utilizing the County Park the need to find and possibly purchase land for such a facility would not be needed.
I ask you to get behind this idea and contact your county board supervisor and city councilor to get there support, and support private efforts to get the funding to make a water park a reality in the Oshkosh area.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 02:03 PM MDT
The county board bailed on the swimming facility they have now. What leads you to believe they would want anything to do with this project? Keep it in the city!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 02:55 PM MDT
The County Baord did not bail on this- get wrong facts staright - and the County Park is in the city limits.
Why do say the County Board bailed on this- it did not- it reopened it after County Executive closed it. The school district was willing to be a partner after Pollack Pool was closed.
And the County Park is in the city of Oshkosh by evidence of paying that outragaeous storm water fee- meaning al residents of Oshkosh have to pay twice. Eventhough the County Park does not benifit by this and has retenttion ponds it must still pay the fee.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 04:05 PM MDT
If the city had not stepped up and paid the $50,000.00 to keep it open the county board would have let it close. Fact.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 09:28 PM MDT
Your facts are very very wrong first off its the School District which is providing the lifegurds service,
The schooldistrict the city of Oshkosh and the surrounding towns who send children to the Oshkosh Area School District.
And the County Board was not thinking of closing the County Beach- where did get the idea from a misinformed school board member.
Next time ask a county board member or member of the County Parks committee before the make such off the wall and wrong comments.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 07:42 AM MDT
So if the Oshkosh School Board would have voted not to provide the $50,000.00 what would the county board have done? Did Neenah pay there fair share since it is a COUNTY PARK. I didn't think so.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 03:22 PM MDT
When they rip that worthless City Center down that will be a great place for the water park !!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 09:31 PM MDT
County residents get levied for county services like a county park system, Yes Neenha residents were charged for the upkeep of the park and the pool.
Neenah also has its own pool.
if the school would have been short sighted in refusing the agreement then one of two things would of happen. Either the the County would rehired lifeguard personnel or contracted with the school system.
The City Center will not be taken down it has Miles Kimball, Imprint and other businesses in the facility.
Pollack Pool for a site is too small and cannot expand . Also its located right next to old landfill and in residential area.
The South Park site if picked would I believe disturb the current park and the area if that was the site for a new water park site. Why disturb such a wonderfull southside park.
With the County Park site the water park can expand in the future have room for parking , not diturb what is currently at the park, and the County Park staff currently with expertise to mainatin the water park would be in place since they have experience dealing with the County Beach facility.
Remember there are costs after the facility is built. Also how much should the city contribute to a water park facility in Oshkosh.
That is a question all supporters of water park facility need to answer to truly pursue a water park facility for the city of Oshkosh.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 09:01 AM MDT
Stay tuned Mr. Norton, all of your questions will be answered in time.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 01:54 PM MDT
Way to dodge the question. The fact is Oshkosh paid the full $50,000.00. That cost should have been paid by all residents in the county. It is not an Oshkosh pool, it is a county facility.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 01:56 PM MDT
Correction, again. The City of Oshkosh did NOT pay $50,000 to the county for the county bathing facility, the School Board did!
Can we move on from this now?
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 03:20 PM MDT
I meant the School Board, as I mentioned many times before. My error.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 08:02 AM MDT
I wish I knew which city employee you were, I say were because your butt would be gone! I would love to know how much we are paying you inn salary and benefits to run us blue collars down!
When was the last time the arts was a money making venture? You talk about culture, we have it here, and all you could do was bash those of us that helped create it, not the right kind for you. Would you ever make that comment to a Native American, African American..but it is okay with you to disrespect German Americans huh?
Note to City Councilmembers..start going through that city hall staff with a fine toothed comb, we have plenty of fat that can be cut!! By the way we don't build tax base in 20 year TIF districts or city giveaway programs to developers from outside Wisconsin example PARK PLAZA HOTEL still owes the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 07:53 AM MDT
Did I read this last posting right..TOO BLUE COLLAR?
What jackass would have the nerve to make this comment!? Obviously, you have no understanding nor an appreciation for this cities history. The TOO Blue collar group ARE the ones that have helped this city GET and STAY on the map! Where it not for the working class, the likes of Milkes Kimball, Paine Lumber and other barons, WOULD NEVER have been able to become so wealthy. You obviously live in some sort of mental vacumn, that you have so little respect for the workers. You should be very careful, with ones nose lifted so high in the air you are sure to stumble on fall flat on your face. And in case you were equally unaware, it hard to breathe in high altititudes which may explain your lack of brain power and capcity!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 09:15 AM MDT
Our blue collar heritage is a great thing and we should be proud of it. At the same time we must realize that times have changed and the saw mills are gone, along with the jobs. We need to change with the times. This city has been slow to make that adjustment and has been passed by. We are now trying to make up for years of neglect. It will take time and money.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 12:56 PM MDT
I have the answer for all those wealthy, intellegent folks that feel Oshkosh is TOO blue collar and needs to change. I mean really you are all right, after all why should we hard working citizens and tax payers bother with the poor neighbor, or the elderly citizens in our community. After all they are nothing but a drain on our resources, that could be better spent on the arts and /or entertainment of the affluent. Why should we have to pay healthcare costs for the ill and poor of our community. Again nothing but a drain on all of us. We should allow corporate america to come in, pay nothing for land, pay little to unemployed desparate people, offer no benefits and expect nothing from them as corporate leaders and neighbors. After all we should kiss the very ground they walk on as they have now made this community a new!
Why don't we all want to behavior this way? Because some of us learned as children that we are our brothers keeper, what you do for the least of humanity we do for GOD. That there is something bigger and more important to our time here on this earth than immediate gratification, and greed. That one day we too will be old, or fall on hard times or become ill. And we were taught that we help one another, we look out for one another. That spirit is what made Oshkosh a home to so many generations of families. It IS what sustained us when tragedy has struck our community, storms, floods, and even deaths. We were a community that had roots in her people, we put stock in people not THINGS. With the changes you speak of, I hear nothing of people. I hear about things, empty petty things.
Maybe you should change the name of the community with these BIG changes, so that the movers and shakers coming here will feel that they have acually arrived in the right place, Oshkosh obviously leaves a bad taste in some of your mouths. How about we call the community SMALLVILLE, or PLEASANTVILLE. Where no one thinks for themselves, or about anyone else. That could be our new motto.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 01:52 PM MDT
Do you think the people of Oshkosh were any different than our neighbors to the north or south 50 years ago? The whole Fox Valley is full of hard working caring people. Morgan's, Paine, Rockwell, B'Gosh, Square D, they are all gone or a shadow of what they once were. While they were leaving we missed on a chance for Quad Graphics, the Fox River Mall, an airport for travelers, and who knows what else. Those are the opportunities we let pass us by. Take your feel good garbage out of here. This is about jobs and the future of this city. As long as we have the attitude that industry is the enemy we will continue to fail and fall behind the rest of the state.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 06:43 PM MDT
You are so correct. I despise the concept and the practice of "class war" but ,by Christmas, it comes as much from the bottom up as from the top down. There seems to be an actual horror of anything beyond bending an elbow at the local pub or stomping it up to hillbilly music.
People seem to feel THREATENED by the very idea of a concert or a play. A segment of the people, that is. Underneath we all are more alike than different. For the good of Oshkosh we should stop tearing ourselves to pieces. Thr right hand and the left hand should pull together.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 06:53 PM MDT
I did not write any previous comment but must say that I love the working class. I am a union supporter from a long way back. Most of the wealthy became leeches living off the honest sweat of the working class.
However there is a difference between a worker, a person who wears and blue collar and gives a day's work for a days's wages and what I hear from this blog. Real workers were men and women of vision and imagination. They ALWAYS wanted the next generation to live better than they had lived. They were builders not destroyers. They DID instead of griping. They did NOT whine.
Those people GAVE us most of what we have. This generation seems to be dedicated to making sure we advance no further.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 08:58 PM MDT
Ah more class warfare and hate. Someone has to put up the money to start a business. It is called capitalism. These people take a great risk. If they become successful you call them leeches? You people are just amazing. You are so jealous of anyone who is successful.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 09:39 PM MDT
Quite to the contrary in my case. I am from "the accomplishing class" if you wish to make distinctions. In no way do I (nor anyone I know) have anything but respect for people who amass wealth and we certainly do not feel elevated above a person who works with their hands. But I do also contend that the owner or upper management of any company that is stingy with wages or health care or simply gestures of humanity to their employees while expanding their own wealth and holdings are leeches. Make no mistake, the life blood of America has ALWAYS been the workers NOT the people in the mahogany offices. Our greatest progress has always grown out of times when those two worked together. But when they didn't, contrary to the ego of some members of management, the workers have still been the most valuable side of the equation.
It is silly to yell about class warfare in the face of very real socital threats.(Why don't we go out on the playground and taunt each other?) One of those is executive salaries that top fifty or so million a year while the real wages of workers is shrinking. That is not only immoral, it is ugly
However, in my mind, that is no excuse for SOME people who identify themselves as "blue collar" to give in to pointless complaining or to the fables of disrespect and inequality. There is a real fight ahead for us...but it is not aginst each other.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 10:05 AM MDT
Yet if you read many of the posts about teachers (workers) they are the whipping boy. As workers they don't deserve the benefits or salary they receive. Rather than work to bring others up these posters want to tear away at what teachers receive. Why is there so much hatred towars teachers? That is one of the real trouble with education today... parents and a public that do no respect teachers and in fact by their actions teach children not to respect them either. I have seen it first hand many times. Do teachers have great benefits, no doubt, could there be some modifications to those benefits, of course (though a few years ago the teachers union did agree to change from a managed care plan to a point of service plan saving the district money) but what is the incentive, we will take away your benefits, tell you, you are overpaid, show you little to no respect and oh yeah, the money we save from taking away your benefits will not be used for education we'll keep on cutting that budget, really who would bargain such a thing?
There is so much inconsistency and so many posts from people who just don't have the facts correct, though I suspect they don't much care about the facts they would rather deal in rhetoric.
The whole-- taxes are so high people are being forced out of their homes...according to the Tomah Journal using statistics from the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance (a rather conservative but respected group) in 2004 property taxes in WI consumed 4.3% of personal income, in 1994 it was 4.8% which is nowhere near the 6.0% it was in 1972. As for home ownership in 1990 68.3% of WI residents lived in owner occupied housing. In 2004 that figure was 73.3%. The editorial goes on to say that "it is bogus to claim that WI can't afford the level of services it provides. The real question is whether we want to." It is clear from most of the posts on this site...we don't want to -- another reason education funding is so difficult right now is because close to 80% of taxpayers do NOT have children in school so school funding is no longer a high priority. I find that so sad because without teachers what do you have... how do you have doctors without teachers?, lawyers without teachers?, dentists, pharmacists, store owners you name it? They were all once taught by teachers yet there seems to be so little respect for teachers. No, I'm not a teacher but I am a parent of Oshkosh students and I've talked to some of my children's teachers and it is sad to hear some of the best teachers say "if I had it to do over again I wouldn't go into teaching, there is too much hatred, too much politics, it isn't what I thought it would be when I got into it". What does our future hold if that is what dedicated teachers are feeling. Who will be left to go into teaching. Soon there will be a teacher shortage and Oshkosh will not be able to attract the teachers that Neenah or Appleton will because of the way teachers are being treated right now. Our reputation has been damaged and it will take years to get it back.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 21 2005 @ 02:02 PM MDT
Many of those teachers would maybe be surprised to find out that there's "politics" in every organization. Regrets don't change things, actions do.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 22 2005 @ 08:28 PM MDT
Well I for one am thankful that, even though they regret that their profession had become one that no longer garners respect by a very vocal (and I'd say sometimes vicious) segment of the community, these dedicated teachers have decided to stay in the profession. Unless you've spent some real time in our schools recently you have NO idea what our teachers face. Yet they are criticized, demeaned, and begrudged what they have earned. I think this community will soon find out what all the teacher bashing will do to the school system. If good people don't stand up to the vicious minority soon Oshkosh will only attract those who can't find work anywhere else rather than the quality teachers we have now. When the teacher shortage begins in WI (and it will begin in 5-7 years) The top graduates will no longer come to Oshkosh, they will go to communities that truly value them and that say so, in the end it really isn't about the money as much as it is about the respect.
Great timing by the Northwestern and the City to bring up the need for permits and fences for all of the temporary pools popping up all over the place. Now let me see if I have this straight, the City of Oshkosh won't budget the money for a pool facility. But now they want to make people pay for putting up removable pools on their own private property? And also make people install fencing? Has it occurred to anyone that this again affects mostly low income residents who can't afford a pool pass at the surrounding pools outside our community? It just keeps getting harder and harder to support this city and its backward ways, and want to stay here.
My family bought the $160 pass at Omro to enjoy their aquatic center this Summer. We have used it many times already, but I can see how $160 would be a burden for many. When we inquired about the price at Omro City Hall, we we re told the resident price is $80. After asking why so much for non-residents, the clerk told us that Omro approached surrounding cities including Oshkosh to ask for help in the cost of running the pool for a decreased annual fee to non-residents. Oshkosh turned them down.
"Oshkosh on ther Water" - One Beach, no pools, but we got splash pads.
What a joke!!!!
Jim B.
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 01:13 PM MDT
And then you wonder why the state wants to take more and more power away from the local boards and councils that clearly have very little vision !!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: admin on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 01:24 PM MDT
Jim, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. While I understand the need for safety when there is a pool in your yard, it seems like the city requires people to jump through a lot of hoops in order to get the necessary approval for a portable type pool. Make people put up a fence around some of these pools and be done with it. All the rest, like site plans and so on and so forth seems a bit much, especially for something that is portable, inflatable and only up a few months at best.
Interesting how Oshkosh apparently turned Omro down after doing away with our own pool. But I will say this about gifts given to the city, like Pollock Pool was. If there was ever a reason for a surcharge at the amphitheater to help cover ongoing maintenance and perpetual care, the demise of Pollock Pool would be it. This memorial pool was a gift to the city, yet not taken care of over the years the way it should have been. If we set money aside specifically for ongoing care of the amphitheater, it should not face the same death our municipal pool did.
- Cheryl Hentz
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 02:49 PM MDT
I am relatively new to Oshkosh. I am from the Lake Michigan shoreline and am not used to paying to use a beach. Because of the limited hours, 1pm opening, and my family's schedule, I cannot use the beach, nor can my family pay $10 a visit (or the annual pass) to a crowded beach. It would be cheaper for us to buy a portable pool for $50 to $100 dollars that we would have every summer. Unfortunately we cannot afford the additional charges of a pool permit, fence permit, wiring, and fencing. We cannot afford, nor have time for, the YMCA as their open swim times conflict with other obligations.
Even more depressing is the sight of the Pollack Pool behind Oshkosh West High School. I am surprised that this pool wasn’t kept up and kept open. It looks like it was nice at one time. I hope the amphitheater doesn’t go the same way.
I guess we all should be grateful that the beach stayed open. The county didn’t want the headache of maintaining the “County” beach so they dumped it on the school district, specifically the recreation department. If it wasn’t for the school board footing the $50,000 tab this year, the county would have closed down the “County” beach.
While I like the idea of establishing deep roots here and being a part of the growth of Oshkosh, I am saddened by the limited care the city council and county board give to their constituents. The time may come where it will be just too expensive to live here and no reasons to stay. I think it is time for the public to take back their city.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 03:36 PM MDT
Truer words have never been spoken about taking back our city.
[ Reply to This | Delete ]
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 02:03 PM MDT
Who ever said the County Beach would close if the school district would not provide Lifeguard services is very very much misinformed.
It was something that the two groups had been working on for two years- Pollack Pool was closed last summer as you may remember.
Get your facts straight before making such accusations- and get them from direct sources not from unimformed sources.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 04:08 PM MDT
I watched the school board meeting in which they caved in to the county and gave the $50.000.00 for the life guards. It was the last chance for the beach to be open for the summer. If the school board had voted no the beach would have closed.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 15 2005 @ 01:46 AM MDT
Piss on your starving kids, aids etc!!! How about helping our own that really need help???!!!!!!!!! This city thinks it has an unlimited bank account and can keep spending freely!!! I don't know about you but I get a .50 cent raise a year and I'll let it be known I'm happy to have a job in this town but this ampitheater and other crap is BS!!! And another thing? Where is all the tax money from all the new 250,000 and above dollar homes going?? Someones pocket I imagine!!!!!!!!!!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 15 2005 @ 10:10 AM MDT
Most of the 250,000+ homes being built are NOT in the city limits. Move on out to the Town of Algoma where you won't get taxed to death.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:13 PM MDT
yeah! revolution, man! let's fight back!
forget about starving kids, homeless people and preventing hiv/aids! let's get a pool!
leave revolutions to the truly oppressed.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:18 PM MDT
Oh for God's sake. Stop being so melodramatic. No one said people were forgetting about these things, and we all do what we can. But if we don't have things for our kids to do, it is a proven fact they will get into trouble doing something else.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 05:12 PM MDT
Not to mention that we are not going to solve such golbal problems locally, especially with a few hundred thousand dollars it would take to fix up the existing pool or a few million it would take to build a new one as some private people are considering.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 09:16 AM MDT
I couldnt agree more. How much did we spend for the "Puke Fest" Auditorium? And we cant spend a nickle for the kids of Oshkosh.? If the Leach family wanted to do something nice for Oshkosh, why didnt they specify the money be used for a water park.
Instead we have a place for "rich" people to go on
Thursday nites, and park their boats. When most of the "rich" are smart enuff to live outside the city limits. IE they dont pay the high taxes the working dummies do.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 09:41 AM MDT
More class warfare! Don't "rich people" swim? What is the obsession with swimming in this city? The Leach is much better for this city than a pool.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Jim B. on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 10:38 AM MDT
Getting back to my original post, this is not about class warfare. It is about quality of life. Take a look at our surrounding communities, and you will find swimming facilities in almost everyone(some have multiple facilities). Go beyond that and look at communities all over the Midwest. Why do all of these communities feel there is a need and Oshkosh doesnt?
The Leach and this issue have nothing to do with one another. A pool would be a welcome addition to our community as is the ampitheater.
Why is is necessary to always play the class warfare card?
Jim B.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 03:08 PM MDT
Where is Oshkosh Motor Truck? They could donate a pool to Oshkosh and it wouldn't even make a dent in its profits. Paul E. said there is a committee formed to raise $16 million of private funds for a pool. Lets get some pub. on this!!!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 10:12 AM MDT
If someone wishes to have a pool in the City, start a campaign and raise the money.....Rather than tell others to do it and how Leach should have done something else with their donation, why don't you donate money??
Why is it people criticize the "City" for not having a pool but "we" are the City.....It is too easy to arm chair quarterback while their is nothing preventing others from generating change!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 10:51 AM MDT
Citizens have told the city administration and council members we want a pool. But the council has made a decision NOT to keep one. This is not what the citizens want. We want a pool and we've said we don't mind paying for it. If in doubt about that out it to a vote. What we don't want is some of the other stuff. But since we ARE the city, we can criticize anything we want about what's going on that we pay for.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:20 AM MDT
If you want a pool, get the people together who want the pool and create an organization. Divide the number of families into the overall cost of a pool, and that is the stock 'buy in' price to get into the organization that owns the pool. Your yearly family fees are determined by the yearly overhead costs to run the pool, pay the lifeguards, etc. When you want out of the organization, someone else buys your stock. Madison does it this way. No tax money spent on it whatsoever.
We have moved to the era of user fees for things that aren't used by everyone-- yard waste disposal, boat launching, etc. Why should I as a tax payer have to pay for a pool for YOU to use when I have no interest in using it myself?
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:31 AM MDT
What a pompous and unrealistic attitude. But if that's what you would like then those of us who don't want the ampitheater nor plan to use it should be able to opt out of it, right? Right! Perhaps we should run all of our parks department amenities with user fees as you are suggesting. How about the streets too. We can set up toll booths on each road and if you use the street, you pay to drive down it. If not, you don't have to pay. Same with police and fire. If you use the services, you get a bill; if not, you don't pay. Aren't user fees grand!!
The simple fact of the matter is that things would never get paid for that way and we would lose even the basic of services. But I like your way of thinking; I could sure as hell save tons on my tax bill every year.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:42 AM MDT
You are the one that is out of touch. This is not the same issue as the amphitheater. The costs associated with the amphitheater were to build it, not maintain it. There are user fees in place that will cover the cost of the operation of the amphitheater. Once built, the amphitheater will cost the city no more to maintain than any of the other parks that already exist. The 'user fees' for people paying admission to the theater cover the operating costs.
Pools are notorious for costing a fortune. The money generated by the daily admission costs do little to cover the cost of running the establishment. Pools invariably are money holes that have tons of money poured into them. And if you want one so badly, pay for it.
You show me one person in this fine city that doesn't use a road. Tolls, therefore, are not required. Everyone uses them. Everyone pays for them.
The police are able to generate revenue by citations they write. The fire dept does the same, with ambulance fees. A huge push for the fire dept lately has been to expand its ambulance business to generate more revenue! But beyond that, these are public safety issues, and not a luxury, like a pool. The protection they offer is there for EVERYONE in this city, and so everyone should pay for them to be at the ready. Furthermore, their efficiency, which is paid for by your tax dollars, keeps other costs to you down-- insurance costs, primarily. Crime rates, response times, location of fire hydrants, etc all figure into your insurance bill.
So you give bad examples, but you make a nice try. Keep working on it.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:57 AM MDT
Let's clear a few things up right now. First, as of this moment there are NO user fees in place. The city council has not yet voted on any such fee. Second, the taxes associated with the bandhsell were to build things around it, not pay for the actual structure itself. The Leach family did that. But let's say you were right in that the taxes were used to build it. Then we should use tax dollars also to build a municipal pool.
Third, how do you know that years down the road the bandhsell will not cost the taxpayers anything? The pool once paid for itself too ut things and times change. Don't make sweeping statements about the future unless you are clairvoyant.
As far as streets, I think the point was you only pay for the roads you go down. There are a lot of streets many of us don't drive on. Hell some of the roads we've never even heard of. Yet our taxes go to pay for a portion of them. So by all means, let's set up toll booths on each street and charge people for only the roads they use.
Next item you mentioned were the police and fire department. While it is true they generate revenue with citations, if you think for one second that those citations pay for everything these departments do you are more wet than you would be if went swimming in a municipal pool, if we had one. Take a look at oyur tax bill, if you're even a property owner in the city, and you will see that each and every property owner is paying for police and fire protection through their property taxes.
Police and fire may be public safety issues, but swimming is a public health issue. Check out the research and you will see all the added benefits to one's health that are derived from simming. Oh, maybe we can get Breathe Free Oshkosh involved since they love public health issues. They could call themselves Swim Free Oshkosh.
Finally, my examples stand. You want people to pay for those things they use? Great! I am behind the concept. But as was originally stated, thigns would never get paid for that way. So let's then use your needs versus luxury items theory. Having a bandshell is not a need. It is a luxury. Only those then using it or wanting it should pay for it and the rest of it should be able to opt out.
Your argument loses. Mine wins!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:03 PM MDT
I have a great idea. If the pool is going to be so beneficial towards citizens' health, I have a much cheaper way to handle this. Instead of a pool, build a track. Way cheaper. Much less costly to run. Beneficial because it provides a means for exercise, but doesn't have the overhead costs that a pool does.
Again, you make a poor argument. I declare myself the winner.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:45 PM MDT
Ask any doctor and I'm sure you'll learn that swimming is better for one's health than running. But perhaps not in your book.
Before you go declaring yourself the winner of this debate I hasten to remind you that you still have failed to address the issue of why it's not okay for tax dollars to be spent on a pool but it is okay for them to be spent on a bandshell.
Hmm...(tapping one's foot waiting for the answer that I feel certain will be laughable).
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 01:06 PM MDT
I wonder if this is the same person that is tapping their foot (probably doesn't have any real work to do) that criticizes the Leach's for their donation and puts down the family that owns majority of BGosh for "leaving".....I wonder how many they employ? Probably none since they have time to tap their foot before they cash their welfare check!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 01:47 PM MDT
It really does not matter how many they employ or if they are a business owner. They are a concerned taxpayer interested in fairness, especially when they're probably feeling overtaxed like so many of us. You act very smug and can maybe afford things but while you are busy trying to put others down for their opinions why don't you step out from behind your checkbook and see that not everyone can afford the luxury items you thing are necesary.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:39 AM MDT
The person who suggested that no tax money is spent on a municipal pool in Madison is simply not correct; not even close. Refer to this link, a story written at the end of 2004, which talks about the city kicking in money and other private funds being raised for the city's first-ever municipal pool.
http://badgerherald.com/news/2004/12/01/city_receives_3_new_.php
This is a far cry from what the person making the comment on here wants people to believe.
I also agree 100% with the other person who sgueested we pay for all of our services and streets, parks and other amenities with user fees. That will lower our tax bills significantly. I'm all for it.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:45 AM MDT
the city's FIRST EVER municipal pool. But they have several that are privately owned, in the manner I described. Want me to name them?
Ridgewood, ParkCrest, West Side, Hill Farms, High Point...
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:01 PM MDT
Those may be little subdivisions or what have you. But the point remains that the city has a municipal pool. If he people in Madison wnated something above and beyond that, as they apparently did, they should pay for it. We are talking about a municipal pool for Oshkosh, just like so many other communities have. You can't see the difference because you don't want to see the difference. You sound like Bryan Bain on the city council or one of his crowd.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:10 PM MDT
So how do you know the people of Oshkosh want a pool? Because of what you heard on the street? There's a term for that-- it's called 'anecdotal.' You have nothing to back your argument for a pool. You have no statistics to argue that a majority of people in this city want a pool. Understandably, I don't have any information to the contrary. But since you're the one who wants to spend tax money on this pool that everyone wants, prove it. Show us some statistics. Better yet-- put it on the ballot. If the majority vote in favor of it, then let's spend our tax money on it! That's how a democracy works.
(Wait a minute. You're part of the crowd that is conviced that the smoking ban is wrong/failed/illegal, even tho the majority voted for it. We could never use the same method to determine if we really want a pool, could we? It would just be a big lie, like the smoking ban....)
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:41 PM MDT
Great idea! Let's put in on a ballot. By the way, since you seem to be of the opinion that we should do quality of life type things by referendum vote only, where was the ballot for the amphitheater? We don't know that a majority of taxpayers wanted it, but we all are getting stuck paying for it. Who is NOT paying for it though are a lot of the hoity-toity people from out of town who will never have to pay a thing for it, unless it is a dollar per ticket more for the upkeep. But that's hardly the same thing as chipping in to pay millions toward it.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 02:04 PM MDT
I am the person from the post you responded to, and I agree! Let's have a vote on the amphitheater. I have no problem with that. We can vote if we want to accept that money and add to the infrastructure to build it. Same goes for the fishing pier OSFC wants to donate.
Of course, it doesn't make practical sense to have referenda on all of these issues. That's why we have the council-- we vote for them to make these decisions, as to whether or not our tax money should be spent this way.
This forum is so predictable, and it's so fun to put the opposite spin on things just to get your goat. Most of the readers here love to complain about city hall, hate the smoking ban, want a pool, and hate the amphitheater. They complain of the likes of Bryan Bain, and Shirley Mattox, and Bill Castle. And these complainers are in the minority.
Bill Castle and Shirley Mattox keep getting re-elected. The smoking ban passed. The amphitheater was built. And there is no talk of putting in a pool. And yet so many of the responses about ANYTHING in this forum always come back to those issues. Important issues? They are to you! But how come your arguments never make it anywhere past this forum? How come you're always in the minority?
I will continue to debate the unpopular. It is so much fun to throw that fuel on the fire and generate some dialog. If we all agreed, this forum wouldn't be any fun!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 02:14 PM MDT
You will continue to debate the unpopular? More smugness from the upper crust of blue-collar Oshkosh. Instead of debating the unpopular why don't you TRY if you have the wherewithall to do so, to imagine what it is like for someone with not nearly as many resources as yourself. Instead you make light of things like that. Your attitude is disgusting and yet all your want to do is get someone's goat. I guess that's about all you have left to get since our money is quickly disappearing from pocketooks and checkbooks.
When it comes to elections I would not be so arrogant either about those who keep getting reelected. After people's taxes go up because of the reassessments (and the people who are hurt the worst are the ones in the inner city who can afford it the least) we will see who gets reelcted and who doesn't. A lot can change in 9 months time.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 03:44 PM MDT
How typical of you. Read further into my post. I will debate the unpopular--play the devil's advocate, so to speak, because if we all agreed, this forum wouldn't be any fun.
You respond to every post of mine by calling me smug, arrogant, pompous, etc. And upper crust? Please. Where did you come up with that? Maybe you ought to look in the mirror.
You do bring up an interesting point: Blue Collar Oshkosh. One of the huge problems facing this city is its blue collar appearance. Larger scale businesses and stores won't come to Oshkosh. Why not? Too blue collar. So there is this huge push, and appropriately so, in my opinion, to do things that will remove the blue collar tag from our city. Examples? The amphitheater. The resort (five something-or-other; at a loss for the name). Downtown investment. So to make this city move forward, we need to pursue these things that deal with these issues-- things that will make our city more attractive. And we're doing it. But not with the help of people like you. Sure, streets are important, and a pool even, if that's what the people want. But we also need progress that's going to attract people. Businesses are not interested in the diatribe of failing to progress a city and instead only spending money on the things that need to be fixed up. It's a good thing the council has taken in this appropriate direction. The progress is beginning to show already.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 06:11 PM MDT
This city survived for decades on its blue collar roots. Those of us who were raised here are proud of our heritage. If you don't like the blue collar atmosphere (1) why did you come here in the first place and (2) why do you stay here?
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 06:53 PM MDT
I came to Oshkosh because 1) I am a city employee and 2) I like taking your tax money.
Come on. I said nothing about doing away with the blue collar mentality. And the fact of the matter is, cities in this day and age are struggling with loss of shared revenue and concerns about increasing costs across the board. The solution? Attract people/businesses/stores to the city to allow the tax base to grow. An overall blue collar mentailty doesn't work well with that type of agenda. We need a healthy mix of all types of lifestyles. That is what I am proposing. Oshkosh is not going to survive if it doesn't do things to attract tax base. If you think otherwise you are in for a surprise.
It's time to think outside the box. Let's look at ways that will encourage people to come to our city. Nice streets are important, but they don't attract businesses. Arts, culture, good schools and smart growth attract people. We need an intelligent mix to our spending, not just constant repair to our infrastructure. To completely put all of our eggs in that basket is a mistake. The smart decisions made by city officials in the last several years are taking us in the right direction.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 07:55 PM MDT
If you say so. I guess that's why new businesses, restaurants and the like are all going to the south and north. Great plan!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 08:29 PM MDT
Why are they? Cause we're a blue collar town!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
That's not the reason at all, oh wise one. This town used to be a lot more blue collar than it is today and we had more opportunities to shop, many of them large chain, anchor stores; and we had one of the first indoor malls in the nation. We also had restaurants like Long John Silvers and I believe even a Red Lobster. But with the Fox River Mall going up north to Grand Chute (see previus psots as to why!) we have lost a lot of things - many of which we will never get back, no matter how much progress you put into downtown. But even if we improve things a little bit we will always be behind the 8 ball in comprison to other surrounding cities and towns. Oshkosh loses. Everyone else wins. But go ahead and keep throwing good money after bad, especially downtown. Gives us more reason to say "we told you so" when it doesn't work.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 10:11 AM MDT
1) You are clueless if you dont think a pool will be built. The 3 sites on the board are Pollack, South Park, and where the city center is.
2)We are not a blue collar town. Rockwell or whatever they are called this year employees a quarter of what they once did at $5 an hour less than they once paid. Morgan door that once had over 1000 employees now has 250-300. Square D is gone. Leach is gone. We are a retail town of little shops and retail jobs. Hence the lack of money is this town !! We keep building grocery stores and retail chains.
Why wont big business come here ?
No ammenities. And thats what a pool, an theater, the Grand, 5 Rivers, etc offer. Things for people to do and see !! If you cant comprehend this then please stop wasting our time by posting on this site !!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 07:32 PM MDT
LOL, you're missing the point. Let me rephrase what I mean by blue collar. For the most part, cheap. Not necessarily in a bad way. But that is why ShopKo, Wal Mart, K Mart and Target survive, and you don't see shops like Old Navy, the Gap, Marshall Fields, etc. Oshkosh is seen by corporate America as cheap. Deny it all you want, it's a fact.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 09:54 PM MDT
You could always join the country club. They have a really nice, brand new pool!! You can be a "social" member if you don't golf.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 11 2005 @ 10:29 AM MDT
Cheap ?.......How do you spend money you dont have , or simply cant make ? ?
Talk about missing the point !!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 11 2005 @ 06:05 PM MDT
Now back to the subject of the pool... My son is a student at South Park Middle School. He is the site council there. One of his projects that he was working on was re-opening up the South Park Pool. He told me that the the council said that it would cost more to shut it down completely (Note: Right now it still has water in it but they are just not heating it) than re-open that rest of it. When my children were young they had open swimming and swimming lessons too at the Pool in the summer. So, we have a pool why not open it up to the students and the public again?!? It would not solve the immediate problem, but would help some-what. What do you people think about this?
Dennis S.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 11:38 AM MDT
Let's compare this thread to the one about the amphitheater bathrooms. The leak is out that a group in Oshkosh is looking at putting in an aquatic center, to the tune of several million dollars. Most of the money will be donated. But the city will have to kick in hundreds of thousands of dollars in infrastructure. What are your thoughts on that? Sounds an awful lot like the bathrooms at the theater, don't you think? Keep the bid waiving argument out of this, ans stick to the argument about the infrastructure upgrades around the theater, and the bathrooms themselves. Should we or shouldn't we, when it comes to the pool? All of you arrogant citizens screaming that the bathrooms were unnecessary should probably be screaming the same tune when it comes to TAX MONEY (gasp!) being spent on this non-essential piece of entertainment!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 12:30 PM MDT
Where do you get off calling concerned citizens "arrogant?" Someone who would so such a thing is obviously arrogant themselves, not to mention uninformed and unconcerned about how the majority of citizens in Oshkosh live. Go talk to someone who gives a damn about you.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 02:35 PM MDT
Where were you a week ago when words like arrogant were flying all over the place? You were the one who was calling me arrogant! So now you're not only arrogant, you're a hypocrite!
By the way, my wife left me and my kids hate me because they say I am too self centered.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 14 2005 @ 03:46 PM MDT
Good for your wife and kids.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 05:36 AM MDT
I've seen better behavior at local day care centers.
Can't we once stick the the subject at hand?? Get a life!!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 01:58 PM MDT
I would hope that the group formed to create a water park would consider placing the park at the Winnebago County Park.
There is plenty of room to expand an easily accessible for all around to get to.
One knock on the County Park is that it’s too far for children to get there by bikes. But that argument could be used for any proposed site, for if built at the old pool site how could someone living across town or the highway be able to get to the water park by use of a bike.
A bus route could be altered to have children and adults alike dropped off right at the door of the water park. And by building it at the County Park families and individuals could be involved in many activities besides swimming while at the County Park.
The water park will need professional staff to maintain it; the County parks staff has that expertise. And with the school district possibly providing the lifeguards the whole area could be part of this project.
By utilizing the County Park the need to find and possibly purchase land for such a facility would not be needed.
I ask you to get behind this idea and contact your county board supervisor and city councilor to get there support, and support private efforts to get the funding to make a water park a reality in the Oshkosh area.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 02:03 PM MDT
The county board bailed on the swimming facility they have now. What leads you to believe they would want anything to do with this project? Keep it in the city!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 02:55 PM MDT
The County Baord did not bail on this- get wrong facts staright - and the County Park is in the city limits.
Why do say the County Board bailed on this- it did not- it reopened it after County Executive closed it. The school district was willing to be a partner after Pollack Pool was closed.
And the County Park is in the city of Oshkosh by evidence of paying that outragaeous storm water fee- meaning al residents of Oshkosh have to pay twice. Eventhough the County Park does not benifit by this and has retenttion ponds it must still pay the fee.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 04:05 PM MDT
If the city had not stepped up and paid the $50,000.00 to keep it open the county board would have let it close. Fact.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 17 2005 @ 09:28 PM MDT
Your facts are very very wrong first off its the School District which is providing the lifegurds service,
The schooldistrict the city of Oshkosh and the surrounding towns who send children to the Oshkosh Area School District.
And the County Board was not thinking of closing the County Beach- where did get the idea from a misinformed school board member.
Next time ask a county board member or member of the County Parks committee before the make such off the wall and wrong comments.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 07:42 AM MDT
So if the Oshkosh School Board would have voted not to provide the $50,000.00 what would the county board have done? Did Neenah pay there fair share since it is a COUNTY PARK. I didn't think so.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 03:22 PM MDT
When they rip that worthless City Center down that will be a great place for the water park !!!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 09:31 PM MDT
County residents get levied for county services like a county park system, Yes Neenha residents were charged for the upkeep of the park and the pool.
Neenah also has its own pool.
if the school would have been short sighted in refusing the agreement then one of two things would of happen. Either the the County would rehired lifeguard personnel or contracted with the school system.
The City Center will not be taken down it has Miles Kimball, Imprint and other businesses in the facility.
Pollack Pool for a site is too small and cannot expand . Also its located right next to old landfill and in residential area.
The South Park site if picked would I believe disturb the current park and the area if that was the site for a new water park site. Why disturb such a wonderfull southside park.
With the County Park site the water park can expand in the future have room for parking , not diturb what is currently at the park, and the County Park staff currently with expertise to mainatin the water park would be in place since they have experience dealing with the County Beach facility.
Remember there are costs after the facility is built. Also how much should the city contribute to a water park facility in Oshkosh.
That is a question all supporters of water park facility need to answer to truly pursue a water park facility for the city of Oshkosh.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 09:01 AM MDT
Stay tuned Mr. Norton, all of your questions will be answered in time.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 01:54 PM MDT
Way to dodge the question. The fact is Oshkosh paid the full $50,000.00. That cost should have been paid by all residents in the county. It is not an Oshkosh pool, it is a county facility.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 01:56 PM MDT
Correction, again. The City of Oshkosh did NOT pay $50,000 to the county for the county bathing facility, the School Board did!
Can we move on from this now?
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 03:20 PM MDT
I meant the School Board, as I mentioned many times before. My error.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 08:02 AM MDT
I wish I knew which city employee you were, I say were because your butt would be gone! I would love to know how much we are paying you inn salary and benefits to run us blue collars down!
When was the last time the arts was a money making venture? You talk about culture, we have it here, and all you could do was bash those of us that helped create it, not the right kind for you. Would you ever make that comment to a Native American, African American..but it is okay with you to disrespect German Americans huh?
Note to City Councilmembers..start going through that city hall staff with a fine toothed comb, we have plenty of fat that can be cut!! By the way we don't build tax base in 20 year TIF districts or city giveaway programs to developers from outside Wisconsin example PARK PLAZA HOTEL still owes the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 07:53 AM MDT
Did I read this last posting right..TOO BLUE COLLAR?
What jackass would have the nerve to make this comment!? Obviously, you have no understanding nor an appreciation for this cities history. The TOO Blue collar group ARE the ones that have helped this city GET and STAY on the map! Where it not for the working class, the likes of Milkes Kimball, Paine Lumber and other barons, WOULD NEVER have been able to become so wealthy. You obviously live in some sort of mental vacumn, that you have so little respect for the workers. You should be very careful, with ones nose lifted so high in the air you are sure to stumble on fall flat on your face. And in case you were equally unaware, it hard to breathe in high altititudes which may explain your lack of brain power and capcity!
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 09:15 AM MDT
Our blue collar heritage is a great thing and we should be proud of it. At the same time we must realize that times have changed and the saw mills are gone, along with the jobs. We need to change with the times. This city has been slow to make that adjustment and has been passed by. We are now trying to make up for years of neglect. It will take time and money.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 12:56 PM MDT
I have the answer for all those wealthy, intellegent folks that feel Oshkosh is TOO blue collar and needs to change. I mean really you are all right, after all why should we hard working citizens and tax payers bother with the poor neighbor, or the elderly citizens in our community. After all they are nothing but a drain on our resources, that could be better spent on the arts and /or entertainment of the affluent. Why should we have to pay healthcare costs for the ill and poor of our community. Again nothing but a drain on all of us. We should allow corporate america to come in, pay nothing for land, pay little to unemployed desparate people, offer no benefits and expect nothing from them as corporate leaders and neighbors. After all we should kiss the very ground they walk on as they have now made this community a new!
Why don't we all want to behavior this way? Because some of us learned as children that we are our brothers keeper, what you do for the least of humanity we do for GOD. That there is something bigger and more important to our time here on this earth than immediate gratification, and greed. That one day we too will be old, or fall on hard times or become ill. And we were taught that we help one another, we look out for one another. That spirit is what made Oshkosh a home to so many generations of families. It IS what sustained us when tragedy has struck our community, storms, floods, and even deaths. We were a community that had roots in her people, we put stock in people not THINGS. With the changes you speak of, I hear nothing of people. I hear about things, empty petty things.
Maybe you should change the name of the community with these BIG changes, so that the movers and shakers coming here will feel that they have acually arrived in the right place, Oshkosh obviously leaves a bad taste in some of your mouths. How about we call the community SMALLVILLE, or PLEASANTVILLE. Where no one thinks for themselves, or about anyone else. That could be our new motto.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 01:52 PM MDT
Do you think the people of Oshkosh were any different than our neighbors to the north or south 50 years ago? The whole Fox Valley is full of hard working caring people. Morgan's, Paine, Rockwell, B'Gosh, Square D, they are all gone or a shadow of what they once were. While they were leaving we missed on a chance for Quad Graphics, the Fox River Mall, an airport for travelers, and who knows what else. Those are the opportunities we let pass us by. Take your feel good garbage out of here. This is about jobs and the future of this city. As long as we have the attitude that industry is the enemy we will continue to fail and fall behind the rest of the state.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 06:43 PM MDT
You are so correct. I despise the concept and the practice of "class war" but ,by Christmas, it comes as much from the bottom up as from the top down. There seems to be an actual horror of anything beyond bending an elbow at the local pub or stomping it up to hillbilly music.
People seem to feel THREATENED by the very idea of a concert or a play. A segment of the people, that is. Underneath we all are more alike than different. For the good of Oshkosh we should stop tearing ourselves to pieces. Thr right hand and the left hand should pull together.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 06:53 PM MDT
I did not write any previous comment but must say that I love the working class. I am a union supporter from a long way back. Most of the wealthy became leeches living off the honest sweat of the working class.
However there is a difference between a worker, a person who wears and blue collar and gives a day's work for a days's wages and what I hear from this blog. Real workers were men and women of vision and imagination. They ALWAYS wanted the next generation to live better than they had lived. They were builders not destroyers. They DID instead of griping. They did NOT whine.
Those people GAVE us most of what we have. This generation seems to be dedicated to making sure we advance no further.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 08:58 PM MDT
Ah more class warfare and hate. Someone has to put up the money to start a business. It is called capitalism. These people take a great risk. If they become successful you call them leeches? You people are just amazing. You are so jealous of anyone who is successful.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 18 2005 @ 09:39 PM MDT
Quite to the contrary in my case. I am from "the accomplishing class" if you wish to make distinctions. In no way do I (nor anyone I know) have anything but respect for people who amass wealth and we certainly do not feel elevated above a person who works with their hands. But I do also contend that the owner or upper management of any company that is stingy with wages or health care or simply gestures of humanity to their employees while expanding their own wealth and holdings are leeches. Make no mistake, the life blood of America has ALWAYS been the workers NOT the people in the mahogany offices. Our greatest progress has always grown out of times when those two worked together. But when they didn't, contrary to the ego of some members of management, the workers have still been the most valuable side of the equation.
It is silly to yell about class warfare in the face of very real socital threats.(Why don't we go out on the playground and taunt each other?) One of those is executive salaries that top fifty or so million a year while the real wages of workers is shrinking. That is not only immoral, it is ugly
However, in my mind, that is no excuse for SOME people who identify themselves as "blue collar" to give in to pointless complaining or to the fables of disrespect and inequality. There is a real fight ahead for us...but it is not aginst each other.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 19 2005 @ 10:05 AM MDT
Yet if you read many of the posts about teachers (workers) they are the whipping boy. As workers they don't deserve the benefits or salary they receive. Rather than work to bring others up these posters want to tear away at what teachers receive. Why is there so much hatred towars teachers? That is one of the real trouble with education today... parents and a public that do no respect teachers and in fact by their actions teach children not to respect them either. I have seen it first hand many times. Do teachers have great benefits, no doubt, could there be some modifications to those benefits, of course (though a few years ago the teachers union did agree to change from a managed care plan to a point of service plan saving the district money) but what is the incentive, we will take away your benefits, tell you, you are overpaid, show you little to no respect and oh yeah, the money we save from taking away your benefits will not be used for education we'll keep on cutting that budget, really who would bargain such a thing?
There is so much inconsistency and so many posts from people who just don't have the facts correct, though I suspect they don't much care about the facts they would rather deal in rhetoric.
The whole-- taxes are so high people are being forced out of their homes...according to the Tomah Journal using statistics from the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance (a rather conservative but respected group) in 2004 property taxes in WI consumed 4.3% of personal income, in 1994 it was 4.8% which is nowhere near the 6.0% it was in 1972. As for home ownership in 1990 68.3% of WI residents lived in owner occupied housing. In 2004 that figure was 73.3%. The editorial goes on to say that "it is bogus to claim that WI can't afford the level of services it provides. The real question is whether we want to." It is clear from most of the posts on this site...we don't want to -- another reason education funding is so difficult right now is because close to 80% of taxpayers do NOT have children in school so school funding is no longer a high priority. I find that so sad because without teachers what do you have... how do you have doctors without teachers?, lawyers without teachers?, dentists, pharmacists, store owners you name it? They were all once taught by teachers yet there seems to be so little respect for teachers. No, I'm not a teacher but I am a parent of Oshkosh students and I've talked to some of my children's teachers and it is sad to hear some of the best teachers say "if I had it to do over again I wouldn't go into teaching, there is too much hatred, too much politics, it isn't what I thought it would be when I got into it". What does our future hold if that is what dedicated teachers are feeling. Who will be left to go into teaching. Soon there will be a teacher shortage and Oshkosh will not be able to attract the teachers that Neenah or Appleton will because of the way teachers are being treated right now. Our reputation has been damaged and it will take years to get it back.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 21 2005 @ 02:02 PM MDT
Many of those teachers would maybe be surprised to find out that there's "politics" in every organization. Regrets don't change things, actions do.
Out of touch Oshkosh
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 22 2005 @ 08:28 PM MDT
Well I for one am thankful that, even though they regret that their profession had become one that no longer garners respect by a very vocal (and I'd say sometimes vicious) segment of the community, these dedicated teachers have decided to stay in the profession. Unless you've spent some real time in our schools recently you have NO idea what our teachers face. Yet they are criticized, demeaned, and begrudged what they have earned. I think this community will soon find out what all the teacher bashing will do to the school system. If good people don't stand up to the vicious minority soon Oshkosh will only attract those who can't find work anywhere else rather than the quality teachers we have now. When the teacher shortage begins in WI (and it will begin in 5-7 years) The top graduates will no longer come to Oshkosh, they will go to communities that truly value them and that say so, in the end it really isn't about the money as much as it is about the respect.
posted by Cheryl Hentz at 12:34 PM
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