Thursday, June 30, 2005

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!

Contributed by: Anonymous
Hello to all, I am sending this e-mail to many different participants for some answers to a City Council meeting back in march when I was on the council.

For all that I list here in this e-mail, I ask for your memory bank and response to what I have to say and ask about the Leach?

Does anyone remember during the meeting to vote for the promoter to be voted on as to the question that I asked about local groups using the Leach, as stated at that time and in the paper also that this is a community park and anyone could use it as long as nothing was booked at that time?

For Pam Ubrig, I ask if you can send me a copy of the minutes of that meeting as the question was answered by the promoters that it is a city park and other groups could use it as long as nothing is scheduled!!

For Connie Caulk, could you provide me with a copy of that meeting when I asked the question? I know it will cost me something, but can I get a copy of that meeting when PMI was appproved by the Council 6-1 vote.

Here is why I 'm asking for this information. As I questioned at that meeting about the Leach being a local park. I raised the question as to the Oshkosh Community Band playing there summer concerts at the new Leach Amphitheater, and the answer was okay as long as nothing is scheduled there, I (PMI) don't see why they wouldn't be able to have them there.

Just this past week there was a Oshkosh Community Band Concert on wednesday night and it was held at the Lourdes High School newly added area. I found out that the OACB was told first that it would cost them $1300.00 to have the concert at the Leach, then it was lowered to $500.00 if they only needed a microphone, and that was final. So they had it at the High School where it was free to them as the Band instructor from Lourdes was in the band and arranged for it to be held there.

What a disgrace to the new Leach Amphitheater as a local park, and NOTHING was scheduled there either. So much for being 1-A PARK, and 2-BEING lOCAL!!

Sincerely,
Brian Poeschl

I wish I had Mr David Leach's e-mail address, so I could let him know of this also!!

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:05 AM MDT
Brian, if they needed a sound system, then they need to pay for it. The sound system is part of the amphitheater managed by PMI. Someone needs to be responsible for the equipment.

Had they not required any of the sound system, would they have incurred any charges? I doubt it.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:33 AM MDT
It would be nice if those people who are speaking with such authority would sign their names so we can determine their level of knowledge or not. Anyone could be making these comments so it's important to know when an official is speaking and when they're not. So far Paul Esslinger and Mike Norton from the County Board are the only two who do this.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:08 AM MDT
Speaking with authority? One of the things you will find out is that Ken Wachter from PMI said if you need to use any of the things associated with the amphitheater, such as the sound or lighting system, you will have to pay. This equipment is very expensive, and will require someone from PMI there to supervise its use. Hence, a cost is involved.

This isn't speaking with authority. This is simply informing Mr Poeschl of what was already said at a City Council meeting.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:39 AM MDT
Brian, I have Mr. Leach's email address but don't feel comfortable posting it on here. If you post your email address, I will be more than happy to forward it to you.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:29 AM MDT
Mr. Leach? Does he work for the city or PMI? He has no say in what goes on there.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:45 AM MDT
Ah, he's good enough to take his money for the damn thing but you don't think he has the ability to make a stink if it's not being handled properly as his family intended? Get a clue. People with his kind of wealth, power and opulence are able to pull strings. I should think by now everyone in this city would know that.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 09:40 AM MDT
Pull strings with PMI?

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 10:06 AM MDT
No silly, he has pull with the city and the city has pull with PMI. They are the ones who signed the contract with them and are the employer. See how that works!

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 10:59 AM MDT
If people "with money and power" have so much pull you would think the Supple Group be running the Leach.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:43 AM MDT
Mr. Poeschel, you can huff and puff about "the questions that you asked" until you are red in the face, but as memory serves me, your questions addressed only the availability of the space to community groups. This availability has been confirmed by yourself, PMI and the OACB. The question I don't believe (from my recollection) you asked even once in either your initial statement or your post here was, "What will it cost community groups to use the amphitheater?". Have Pam Ubrig and Connie Caulk pull all the transcripts you want, but unless you plan on going back and putting words in your own mouth, your entire post is somewhat moot. I agree with the previous poster- if a group desires to use a shelter in Menominee Park (another city park) they have to PAY for it. If they desire to amplify whatever they are playing, they need a permit and have to PAY for it. They are not supplied sound equipment and professionals to run that equipment, but if they wish to have such a feature they must PAY for it. Why on earth would the Leach be any different?

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 11:04 AM MDT
The rules for public use on the Leach have been stated clearly in past meetings. Considering Brian was on the council when the rules were spelled out it is amazing he did not know them since he did vote on them, I guess that is why he was voted out of office.

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: admin on Sunday, July 03 2005 @ 04:49 AM MDT
[the following was provided by Richard Wollangk, Oshkosh City Manager via email and we thank him for copying us on his response.]

Hi Brian,

You are right in that when the amphitheater area is not being used for an event that it is open to the public to be used as a park facility. That would be the grass areas and even the stage area if someone wanted to go up there and use it. If however an organization wants to hold an event there and book the amphitheater and use any of the facilities, ie backstage area, sound system, etc., then PMI is responsible for it and also liable for any costs or damage to equipment etc. PMI also has to have a person on sight if any of these items are being used therefore they have a charge.

Hope this is helpful.

Richard

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: admin on Sunday, July 03 2005 @ 04:52 AM MDT
[The following was received via email from Oshkosh City Councilor Shirley Brabender Mattox and we thank her for copying us on it.]

Hello Richard,

I understand that there is a charge for insurance, services, equipment and staff time for any type of performance. I believe that the Grand Opera House has a community rate/scale to enable school groups to afford performing there. This might be something that can be worked out with the Leach and PMI. There also might be a fund that would sponsor the basic rate for community groups' performances. There are a number of possible scenarios up for discussion. It is important to discuss this. Is there a group of community organizations that potentially would like to use the Leach? They could form a committee and meet with PMI and work out a system that would work for most groups.

Growing pains now will help develop a workable system for everyone.
Cheers,
Shirley (Brabender Mattox)

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 03 2005 @ 08:49 AM MDT
I hate to sound pesky about details being discussed yet again, after the FACT. But where the Hell was Shirley Mattox and this line of questioning before the contract was signed?!!!

WAKE UP CITY COUNCIL!!!

Former councilman says PMI's handling of local citizens wanting to use amphitheater disgraceful!
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 09:54 PM MDT
I guess better late than never, but prior to coming to agreement isn't it important to know what was agreed upon?

I think this is an extremely important topic. How do citizens go about reserving the ampitheater? What are the rates if you just want to reserve it like you reserve a shelter in another park? Where do you find this information out? Where can you find the rates for equipment use by item? What do citizens do to find out this information.

Justin Mitchell

Wednesday, June 29, 2005

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?

Contributed by: Anonymous
In a letter to the editor of the Oshkosh Northwestern, former school board member Theresa Thiel wrote that in 14 years of research that her father did, he found "no factual evidence that going smoke free caused a restaurant to lose business and in most cases business increased because the vast majority of people are non-smokers (about 75 percent)."

That is very interesting. I wonder how she or he then explain the fact that certain restaurants all over the country
have been granted hardship clauses because they lost business when a ban went into effect. While a majority of people may not smoke it is a fact that most smokers do so while drinking at a bar. That bar money attributes to a large portion of a business's bottom line and that is where they make much of their profit.

It would also be interesting for Mrs. Thiel to explain where she thinks that 25% of smokers go (to use her quoted figures). If that would equate to 25% of a restaurant's business, that would translate to a huge loss. Should we take away 25% of Mrs. Thiel's household income and see how well she and her family manage? These people are just ridiculous when they want to push their agenda.

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 04:42 PM MDT
The thing that all of you anti-smoking ban people miss is that this is a public health issue. Take the health care costs in this country that are a direct result of smoking, and compare them to the lost business you all are so worried about. Revenue lost from restaurants wouldn't touch the health care costs resulting from this life threatening habit. Smoking is such a health risk that on death certificates in the State of Wisconsin, there is a check box to indicate if a person's death was somehow related to smoking. OPEN YOUR EYES!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 06:17 PM MDT
I would hazard I small wager or better yet an educated guess that the person that wrote this is medically over weight. Why would this be a safe and educated guess, because according to the medical literture now out 85% of all adults and even more stagering childhood numbers are obese!

You want to talk about serious healthcare risk and cost, let us tally up ALL the associated costs for people medically over weight. Let's talk about the children in our schools that can barely waddle to the play ground.

I am not suggesting that smoking is a good thing, I even agree that it is a serious health risk, what I am suggesting is that it is not illegal, nor immoral to smoke, that smokers pay very high per pack taxes that off set your overall tax burden, There should be a place set aside for an adult to smoke after a nice dinner. If not then I beleive the only fair thing to do is take all beef products, cheese products, anything sweet or high in calories off the menus, and have the rightous eat in secret and silence!!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 07:46 PM MDT
I'm not a smoker. As a matter of fact, I hate smoking. I think it's a disgusting, stupid habit. I'll go you one better than that, I think smokers are mentally weak people. Smoking is not an addiction, here's proof: A smoker can go with 8 hours of sleep, no cigarette. Wake up, got to have a smoke, and thereafter every hour. If it was an addiction, they'd wake up every hour needing a smoke.

I'm not pro-restaurant either. Some of the tooth and nail smoking ban fighting restaurant owners in this town have a problem. It isn't a smoking ban either. It's the fact that their restaurants or their food sucks, or both, and they have for some time. Business is going down, down, down, while competition is increasing at a fast pace. For them, the smoking ban is nothing but a scapegoat. Some owners are so focused on the scapegoat that I think they are starting to believe even themselves!

But, with all that said, I'm an anti-smoking ban person. I voted against it, and I would again.

This is about liberty.

This is about not being a butt-in-ski. If you don't want to breathe bad air, don't go where the air is bad. It's not your "right" to go to a smoke free restaurant. Too many people misuse that word. Mind your own business, like your mother taught you (or should have). Don't come around with self-righteous crap about smoking being a public health hazard either. Cigarettes are legal products, just like the unhealthy stuff being served inside the restaurants. You don't have a problem with that, do you? No, because YOU like it.

Do you know WHY there is a box for smoking on a Wisconsin death certificate? Because of butt-in-skis like you, that's why. Self-righteous do-gooders petitioned enough spineless state politicians until it got added by law, more than likely. All under the guise of collecting data, to prove how much we need to be protected from ourselves.

What is next after smoking? Will the next check box on the death certificate be "butterburger eater?"

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:02 PM MDT
At least I didn't make you angry. Last time I checked, the recommended daily allowance for fat in a 2000 calorie diet was 80 grams. Not zero. 80. I don't recall seeing that there was a recommendation for the amount of smoke I should inhale, either directly from smoking cigarettes or second hand smoke. Why? BEACUSE THERE IS NONE!

This absolutely is about public health. Are we a little late in the game? Only by a couple of thousand of years. But it is dangerous for all involved nonetheless, and we might as well make it an issue now. Better late than never.

Please tell me how eating a tenderloin at the Roxy with vegetables, rice pilaf and a couple of beers makes me a walking time bomb.

Self righteous. Self righteous. Hmmm. Seems to me I heard that somewhere before. Last night at the council meeting, maybe? Are you two one in the same?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:42 PM MDT
Where on the latest food pyramid or in any RDA does it say that you should have 2 beers? It doesn't, does it? But because you like it, it's OK?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 08:12 AM MDT
I absolutely love the conversation by the rightous about clean air...please define clean air. It DOES NOT exist! Do you drive a car, SUV, do you work in a factory, an office buliding? Do you use aerosal can to spray bugs in your yard, or style your hair? STOP the hypocritical mumbogumbo, You are an offender ever bit as bad as the smoker, and statically your probably obese as well talk about a double righteous whammy.

Maybe you should try living in a bubble, it is the only way to protect you from life, and all it's naste imperfections, and overeating. If you sincerely believe that 80 grams of fat in your daily diet is acceptable you should see a Cariodologist and a serious dietician. That is grossly out of line, unless your an Atkins fad flunky.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 07:27 AM MDT
Ok, then doctor. Please tell me what the USRDA is for fat in a 2000 calorie diet.

It's 80 grams of fat. Do a little research before you make a fool of yourself.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:21 PM MDT
WHAT IS YOUR UPPER LIMIT ON
FAT FOR THE CALORIES YOU
CONSUME?

Total Cal Sat. Fat Total Fat

1,600 18 grams 53 grams
2,000* 20 grams 65 grams
2,200 24 grams 73 grams
2,500* 25 grams 80 grams
2,800 31 grams 93 grams

From US Dept. of Agriculture website www.usda.gov/cnpp/DietGd.pdf (p.30 of report)

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:09 PM MDT
Let us not forget that all of these hypocrite Breathe Free nuts all drive vehicles, some that probably get terrible gas mileage.

Do you know how much it harms the environment to extract and refine oil? Not to mention the Carbon Monoxide that their vehicles spew out every time they start their engines? Everyone has to breathe in their Carbon Monoxide when they drive their vehicles. But it doesn't seem that they're worried about that because it wouldn't be convenient for them to be without their vehicles.

These Breathe Free folk are the height of hypocrisy!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:29 PM MDT
Do you drive a car? Then stop with that argument, hypocrite. Furthermore, take any CO detector and take it outside. What does it read? ZERO.

Another lousy argument. Keep trying.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:55 PM MDT
How is that person being a hypocrite? They don't care about the CO levels in a restaurant or outside. BFO people do care about it inside, but they think it's OK for themselves to pollute the outside. That's being hypocritical...

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:07 PM MDT
To criticize someone for driving a car because of the CO it emits, and then to do it yourself, is being a hypocrite.

This isn't about CO. CO is not a carcinogen. CO is not what kills people when it comes to smoking. It's the destruction of lung tissue that occurs over time. It's the hundreds of chemicals in the smoke that are dangerous. It's the proven risk that occurs with exposure to any type of smoke that is a by product of tobacco.

That's what this is about.

If you want to argue about simple combustion, then let's do it. Do you allow your car to exhaust into the passenger compartment? No. Do you keep the chimney closed when you have a fire in your fireplace? No. Do you have a camp fire in your living room? No. So if you want to smoke, go outside.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 08:29 AM MDT
OK, let's debate the emissions of an internal combustion engine.

Do you really think the emissions of your car engine don't harm everyone? Are you that stupid? Of course the emissions of an internal combustion engine are spread over a much larger area than a cigarette in a restaurant, but it has now been proven that the internal combustion engine and fluorocarbons are eroding the atmosphere of the earth, which in turn erodes the quality of the air that you so preciously talk about here.

Please don't minimize the fact that the vehicle that you drive doesn't harm EVERYONE. Fact is your vehicle is harming other people's clean air, and you're a hypocrite!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:01 AM MDT
Do you start your car and let it run inside your garage? How about your home?

If you want to smoke, go outside. If you want to talk about pollution, start another thread. If you want to make an educated argument....never mind. That'll never happen.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:37 AM MDT
There you go again. Educated arguments were stated originally and the chest-thumping do-gooders can do nothing but continue talking about how it's a public health issue They refuse to answer the questions posed. So don't people don't want to have an educated argument. Perhaps you think it's only educated when their side is in harmony with yours.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:01 AM MDT
There are regulations that pose profit constraints on any business. This, in my opinion, is simply another that is necessary. The ideal situation would be an across the board smoking ban, state wide. Then all restaurants would be on a level playing field. In the absence of that, the locally administered smoking ban will suffice.

<<>>>

<<>>

How's that?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:37 AM MDT
In case you had not noticed the state is looking at doing that very thing. That should solve the probelm for most. Thought the Breathe Free people will neer be happy with just that. That want everything their way. Compromise is not a word they choose to include in their vocabulary.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 11:57 AM MDT
Of course I noticed the state is pursuing a smoking ban. Hooray!

As far as BFO compromising, and I am asking here, cause I don't know, what compromises were those against the smoking ban willing to make?

BFO brought forth what they thought met their requirements for a smoking ban, and what they thought would not be so restrictive that the citizens wouldn't vote for it. They were right. They won.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:06 PM MDT
I agree with many of your points but smoking is an addiction. Let's use your example about smokers not having to wake up every hour to smoke. Drug addicts or alcoholics don't wake up every hour to get stoned or have another drink. I agree that it is habitual for many, but there is an element of addiction there too. If not the tobacco companies would not have had to pay all that tobacco money.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 09:05 AM MDT
Public health issues notwithstanding, why will you not address the questions posed in the original posting? If smoking bans do not cause restaurant business to be lost how do you explain the fact that so many have lost business, not just in Oshkosh but across the nation? If 25 percent of the population smokes, then it is possible that they are going elsewhere where bans are not in place or where a ban is not as strict as in Oshkosh, making this even more unfair to restaurant owners. The other question you are not answering is, how would you like it if we cut your household income by 25 percent? Tell you what: let's be generous and only cut it by 10 percent. Is that acceptable to you?

Instead of continuing to make the same tired old arguments, why not offer some respectful and reasonable suggestions on how restaurants can get their business back? But please do not do what Margy Davy did by suggesting that one owner turn his establishment into a bar. That is not respectful or reasonable.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 06:59 AM MDT
But the fact of the matter is, if this truly is a public health issue, (and it is), then the loss of revenue is not an argument NOT to have a smoking ban! How much more money could businesses make if there weren't rules regarding waste product emissions? What if they could just dump their junk into the waterways, as in years past? What if they could billow their products of production into thr atmosphere without first reducing the toxins? What if we didn't have to have food inspected? What if grocers could put any old piece of meat on the shelves, without concern regarding it's freshness or age or quality? What if we didn't have to have catalytic converters on cars? These companies would make millions more dollars. But it's not about that! It's about the health issue that exists as a result of smoking.

Go back and read an earlier post of mine: What about the costs to all of us (through health care costs, insurance premiums, etc) who pay for the illnesses created by smoking? Do you really think you and I don't pay for this? If we don't, who does? You see, it's money out of YOUR pocket already! Don't you understand that?

The solution would be a state wide smoking ban, which I hope works out. Do I agree completely with the local ban? Certainly not. But it is better than nothing. So please don't drag the money argument into this. This goes way above that.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:41 AM MDT
So I guess these people's livlihoods should just be flushed down the crapper because of a public health issue, in a place, mind you, that you don't have to go into. That is the point. You have choices. Certain public health issues, like illegal dumping, air quality and the like have rules in place because those things affect everyone. Smoking in a restaurant or at a bar affects only the health of those in that establishment and they have chosen to be there. There is the difference.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:50 AM MDT
I suppose, then, that all the millworkers in the south in the first half of the twentieth century should have not been protected from the destruction of their lungs and the ruin of their health, because (to follow your rationale), they could CHOOSE not to work in the mill? So we shouldn't have enacted health and safety standards in the textile industry because those workers weren't being FORCED to work there?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 01:30 AM MDT
Oh yeah, textile mills in the US becoming unionized and having laws passed to insure the health of the workers. THERE'S a real success story!!!

Where are your clothes made, and worse yet, where do you shop for them?

Oshkosh By GoshNOT.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 07:35 AM MDT
Right, and you shop for all of your clothes at Wal Mart.

Did you read the Northwestern several weeks ago, and see how much Wal Mart alone costs taxpayers in this state every year because of the top notch benefits they provide their employees? So keep shopping at these shops that go out of their way to promote NON ORGANIZED labor. They too are driving your taxes up!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 09:28 AM MDT
At the rate everything keeps going up, including our taxes, and the way wages (for those who manage to stay working) are not keeping up with the cost of living, we can afford to shop owhere BUT WalMart. Sorry but that is the unfortnate reality of everything. I am all for unionized labor but maybe the union leaders need to try harder to stop unrealistic spending by elected officials and to have them do more to encourage jobs in their locales that pay a living wage. Then we could afford to shop somewhere other than WalMart. People shop where the bargains are for a reason. It's called economics.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 11:38 AM MDT
The thing you don't understand is that it is corporations like Wal Mart that contribute to the rise of our taxes! Wal Mart offers such petty benefits to their emplyees, that the state had to pay out 2.7 million dollars in BadgerCare funds last year just to cover the health care costs for Wal Mart employees who didn't have adequate health insurance. So who is paying for their health care? We are! How? Through our taxes!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:01 PM MDT
Yup and we're paying through our taxes for other things some of us didn't want or benefit from either, like all the extra to go along with the bandshell. It would be nice though if we could get back to the point of somebody answering the questioned asked in the original post. This is not supposed to be about WalMart and unionized labor, nor health insurance.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 12:32 PM MDT
To answer the original question of where do the smokers go...most of them continue to go to their favorite restaurants, they just smoke outside, drive around Oshkosh and you'll see smokers smoking in the parking lot of restaurants. The few smokers who won't go to restaurants are more than made up for by the number of non-smokers who used to stay home but are now eating out. Check out the www.oshkoshnews.org site and read the letter by Steve Barney to Sen. Carol Roessler which seems to confirm Mrs. Theil's comments about business increasing when restaurants go smoke free.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: admin on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 02:04 PM MDT
Yet the restaurants with bars continue losing revenue.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, July 03 2005 @ 04:45 AM MDT
The links were followed and the material read but here's the problem, folks. Steve Barney's material cites scientific studies. We all know studies are general in nature rather tha specific. The fact of the matter is restaurants can and do lose money if a smoking ban is in place. Perhaps not all, but some certainly do. A more even, fair ban like he one in Madison right now is reasonable and the way to go. I'll believe an individual business owner's words any day before I believe a scientific study that does not look at every situation, nor view businesses as anything but a statistic.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 05:41 PM MDT
In addition to its obvious problems, Steve Barney's material also cites a lawmaker who tries to console Madison businessowners by telling them and smokers that the ban stops at the building and customers are free to patronize sidewalk cafes, etc. Wow! There's a consolation. Hello!! We live in Wisconsin where it's cold 4 to 6 months out of the year. So when those people go outside to smoke in the middle of winter, or during any other inclement weather, why are the BFO people and their counterparts in other cities not equally concerned about the affects such weather will have on these people's health?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 08:02 AM MDT
The letter by Steve Barney is filled with nothing but a bunch of crap. Actual testimonials from business owners are more believable than this so-called scientific data that ban proponents can skew any way they want in efforts to prove their point.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
And so based on this argument, the city should NOT inspect restaurants for cleanliness, proper food temerature, proper refrigeration temperature, etc, because if I don't have to go the restaurant if I don't want to?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:19 AM MDT
The city inspects things that the general public can't see when they come into an establishment. I think you can see someone smoking when you come into a restaurant, and you can make a determination if you want to stay or not. Why can't you smoking Nazi's understand that?!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:30 AM MDT
You continue to whittle this down further and further, trying to convince yourself your argument is justified. Your frustration level is indicated by your name calling. The bottom line is there is a smoking ban. The majority of voters voted for it. Deal with it.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 08:41 AM MDT
There are no names being called. A slim majority of voters voted for it; the judge still maintains it was poorly worded and misleading and the state will no doubt pass something that will basically outlaw this ban and put something else that is more fair in its place. When that happens, we can then sit back and proclaim "Hey, a majority of lawmakers voted for it. Live with it."

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 10:40 AM MDT
"You smoking Nazis..."

What's that? A term of endearment? People fought hard for what they believe in. They went about pursuing a city ordinance a legal way. It failed via the council. They got signatures for a referendum. It passed. A judge ultimately upheld it. And you call those people Nazis. Saying that's not name calling is like saying Ken Bender wasn't name calling when he called certain people 'self righteous assholes.'

The slim majority you referred to is still the majority. The smoking ban stands. Live with it.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 07:53 AM MDT
Hey, we keep talking about Public Health issues with regard to a smoking ban. And you are right, people have choices. Maybe the Breathe Free nazi's want to take a stab at this twist.

You feel that NO ONE should be subjected to second hand smoke, especially those who have been "forced" to work in that environment right?! What about our Fire Fighters,Police Officers, recue squads? What are you Breathe Free people going to do for them, and their work environment? Oh Ya, that's right they may be needed to save your backside, and they wear (some) air masks?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 09:55 AM MDT
This is a wonderful point. Breathe Free Oshkosh maybe doesn't give a damn about them though.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 11:36 AM MDT
do you really not understand the difference between someone who spends their entire 8 (or more) hour shift breathing second hand smoke (waiter) and a firefighter who at times goes into a burning building (and they sure don't spend 8 hours in there) wearing all kinds of protective gear including a mask so they DON'T breathe the smoke. Why do you think the firefighters wear those masks? So they don't have to breathe the SMOKE

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 02:30 PM MDT
They do not always wear masks though, smart-aleck.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 04 2005 @ 10:25 PM MDT
Really, they go into burning buildings without masks, I doubt it. And surely even you can see the difference between breathing smoke inside a building vs. outside.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:38 AM MDT
I am new to reading these threads and I am amazed at the deterioration from the original comment into just plain nasty talk and name calling.

I have a hard time figuring out why a smoker can't make it through a meal without lighting up. Could it be possible to smoke a cigarette before entering the building and then one after outside the building.

In my family it is not simply the "breathe free" issue, it is simply breathing at that moment. We have severe allergies to smoking and when we are exposed we can't breathe, suffer severe headaches, and skin irritation.

We are a rather large family and if you talk about loss of business, we walk out of a restuarant that can't provide a smoke free enviroment. Typically that is a loss of around $60 for our one table.

If there isn't a ban on smoking, then there should be a requirement to have a separate room with the necessary ventillation to make sure the non-smokers don't have to share in the smoke. Perkins restuarants have such an enclosure.

We do have rights, but sometimes those rights overshadow simple manners, being considerate, and common sense.

Recently we were in a restuarant, seated in the non-smoking section. A man lit up in this section right next to us. When we politely pointed out that this was the non-smoking section, he stated he asked for smoking and was seated here, so he is going to smoke. I left with one of the children. Another table pointed out the same thing and he told them he has a right to smoke. They told him that their child has asthma and she is pregnant. He still argued his rights. They left also. Our family then had to take the dessert that was included in the meal and leave. Simple manners would have dictated that he speak to his waitress and ask to move to the smoking section, but he had his "rights". With no ash trays on the table, common sense would have said, "I am in the wrong section". Being considerate would have been to put the cigarette out when the mistake and health issues were pointed out. Any wonder non-smokers can have a sour taste about smokers rights.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:28 AM MDT
Even Perkins' rooms do not meet the requirements under the Breathe Free smoking ban. Second even the restaurant owners are not so much opposed to a ban, provided their customers can smoke at the bar which is where a lot of money is spent and, in turn, their profit is made. Other than that I agree with you that smokers should be courteous but courtesy is a two way street and the non-smokers need to understand that smoking is not illegal when done in areas where permitted.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 10:09 PM MDT
Legality doesn't always mean right.

Just experienced the arm waving of a smoker and it just about hit a young man in the shorts while he was walking by on the sidewalk this Fourth. Also saw another lean on a chair of a child with her lit cigarette over his head. Also had to have the smoke in our faces as we tried to watch a parade in a crowd. It is just difficult to get away from and makes events unenjoyable. It's a right, but it doesn't need to infringe on the rest of us to be exercised. The rudeness is hard to take and since people, at times, have a hard time governing themselves it requires some laws.

In your home, your car or with others who don't mind smoking, that is fine. But, once you enter a public place have some respect.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 11:01 PM MDT
Respect is always a good thing. But people need to remember that respect for people's rights goes both ways. BFO has insisted from day one on their way and nothing else. That isn't right either.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:35 AM MDT
See there you go again putting words in people's mouths all in an effort to argue, debate and belittle. No one ever said they go INSIDE burning buildings without masks. The comment was made that they don't always wear masls when fighting fires and performing their jobs. The person had also mentioned not just firefighters but police and emergency workers too.

But to address your other point: Quite frankly, if someone is smoking inside a building at a bar where the dining room is elsewhere, it should not disturb anyone. Most people can't even notice the difference. The few people who claim it does bother them (and we all know of one woman from Breathe Free in particular) are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. In fact that same woman already mentioned claims she has problems if she just sees a cigarette butt. imme a break! She needs more than a smoking ban to cure her "ills.'"

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 04:21 PM MDT
The smoking ban proponents still have not addressed questioned raised in the original note here. Guess they don't have a response and there is a good reason for that. They can not refute the points made and they can not dispute that many restaurants have lost money when a smoking ban is in place, both here and elsewhere. We rest our case.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:49 PM MDT
The research and sales tax receipts say otherwise but as one poster said "I take someone's word over any scientific research" so there is no reason to answer the questions as even scientific evidence is not enough.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 07:56 PM MDT
Sales receipts show otherwise? Really? Exactly whose sales receipts are you referring to? Because in Oshkosh alone hardship exemptions have been granted because of business loss; savings have been nearly depleted to keep the doors open; wait staff has said how much they've lost in tips due to slumping business after the ban went into effect and a few people lost their jobs. That doesn't even begin to explain the losses in cities that some restaurants have suffered. But yet you claim the sales receipts tell a different tale. Read into it whatever you want until you walk a mile in these business owners' shoes, you are not qualified to speak about whether they've lost business or not.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:37 PM MDT
Some restaurants suck. That's why they are losing business. There is also a portion of the population, on both sides of the issue, that dislikes whiners. Some restaurants in Oshkosh are losing business because their owners are perceived as whiners on the smoking issue...

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 08:54 PM MDT
Well they apparently didn't SUCK (to quote you) before the ban, so your argument lacks all semblance of logic and you can not prove that is why they are losing business. Your statement about some owners being whiners doesn't hold any water either. These people have been "whining" because their livelihoods are in jeopardy. If you owned a business and did nothing to protect your investment and assets you would be a poor excuse for a business owner. But let's say your statement has even the tiniest smidge of truth to it. How do you explain all the other losses in other communities across the country? There have even been reports of some cities repealing such bans because they caused such loss for their economy.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:07 PM MDT
Competition, that's how it's explained. You can't swing a dead cat by the tail in this town without hitting another restaurant. Have you driven past Kodiak Jacks on a Saturday night? They don't seem to be having any problems. Does anybody have hard data as to the number of restaurant seats in Oshkosh pre-ban and post-ban?

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:20 PM MDT
Kodiak Jacks may be a problem right now but they were not even open when the Oshkosh ban first went into effect last year. Therefore, that argument cannot be used as a blanket excuse. Yes we have a lot of restaurants, but we have a lot of bars too. They all seemed to be doing pretty well before this ban.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:32 PM MDT
It has nothing to do with when the ban went into effect: They are bing successful. Other restaurants are being successful. If bars are failing so miserably, why are so many owners literally standing in line to get a liquor license in Oshkosh? With the interest in liquor licenses, it seems we should be charging more money, or auctioning them off to the highest bidders every two years. Do all of these people really want licenses so they can lose money? Common sense tells you no.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, July 05 2005 @ 09:46 PM MDT
We are talking about restaurants with bars.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 07:58 AM MDT
The reason liquor licenses are so valuable is it gives an establishment the right to install 5 gambling machines. The dirtly little secret in Oshkosh. That is where the money is made. Without the liquor license the gambling machines are illegal.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:06 AM MDT
Machines or not, if people are so concerned about these "dirty little secrets" report the establishment to the authorities. But the big profit is made with the liquor. Period!

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 10:00 AM MDT
You obviously have no clue how much bar owner make on the gambling machines. They make far more on the machines than they do on the liquor.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 12:42 PM MDT
Oh and you would know that how? I can tell you for a fact that is not the case in my establishment.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:00 PM MDT
How many machines do you have, and do you report your income? I am assuming the bar owners who pay out from the "cash box" behind the bar do not.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:28 PM MDT
One machine and everything is reported as it is supposed to be. But you are missing the point about loss of revenue from bar sales when people can not smoke and have a few drinks before or after their meal.I don't think you have the first damn clue how much revenue is lost that way.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 01:35 PM MDT
well now that's just a whole different legal problem there. we ought to let the better business bureau in on those dirty little secrets. in fact, i think i might do that...

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 02:31 PM MDT
The Better Business Bureau has nothing to do with it and surely with as many law enforcement officers and lawmakers as there are who frequent restaurants throughout the state, if this was a porblem or area of concern for them, fines would be issued and the machines confiscated. We have heard about it ONCE and that was with Tommy Thompson's relative. Evidentally it is not that big of a deal and businesses are not making money hand over fist/ IF they were the department of revenue would be finding a way to get a better handle on these machines and their "dirty little secrets." We need to get back to the discussion of the smoking ban and its overall effects on the restaurant industry here and everywhere.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 02:43 AM MDT
Unless you have compared sales tax receipts for the same period from one year to another you cannot say for sure the ban caused restaurants to lose business, restaurants go under all the time even before there were somking bans anywhere. That is what the scientific research does, factors in everything to determine a cause and effect or a correlation. Just because a restaurant is having financial difficulties you cannot prove it is the smoking ban...to get a hardship exemption in Oshkosh you just have to go in and ask for one, you do not have to show proof of anything.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:10 AM MDT
Ah, but you DO have to have an accountant who has examined your books show that yiou've suffered a loss during that time period. Again, if no businesses have lost money because of a ban (and I'm talking about anywhere, not just in little old Oshkosh) how do you explain the fact that some have even gone out of business? Also, if you are so concerned about the lack of proof that gets one an exemption why did you not work with Breathe Free Oshkosh to make getting one harder?

We keep hearing the economy is getting better so you can't blame business loss on that. So all things being equal business loss has to be attributed to the ban.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 08:38 AM MDT
Well how would you explain restaurants going out of business before there was any ban? For goodness sakes, businesses are closed every day for a myriad of reasons. The scientific research says no smoking in restaurants increases business I prefer to go with scientific research rather than hearsay.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, July 06 2005 @ 12:44 PM MDT
If all things are the same other than a smoking ban and the economy is improving then there is no other reasonable conclusion one could draw. That is why hardship exemptions exist and are set up as they are. But of course you would rather go with suppoed scientific "evidence." That is the only way you can support your argument. Heresay is not heresay when it is the business owner and his or her accountant stating the facts. Get a clue how things work in our system.

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, July 07 2005 @ 05:47 PM MDT
You are quite correct in your statement. A ban an and does wreak havoc with certain busineses, especially those where they are dependent on the sale of liquor for much of their bottom line. Thanks for stating the obvious (though apparently not to those who choose to only believe scientific data that can be skewed in any way to "prove" one's point).

Where Do The Smokers Go Mrs. Thiel?
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 11:28 AM MDT
I was at The Bar in Appleton last night on College Av. Smoking ban in place, it was a great atmosphere to be in. Great music by a great band, standing room only, and I could actually see across the room and didn't smell like an ashtray when I got home.

Someone made a reference to Kodiak Jack's in an earlier post and commented how even with the ban, their business is thriving. That got me thinking:

Maybe it's the QUALITY of the business that is drawing people or pushing them away, and not the ability to smoke. If a bar or restaurant is only appealing because of your ability to smoke inside, maybe those businesses need to work a little harder to make their businesses more attractive. It's working in the above mentioned examples. Why can't it work other places? You never stay the same. You're either getting better or getting worse. Time for some businesses experiencing 'hardships' to work a little harder to try to get better.

Tuesday, June 28, 2005

Open letter to Mayor William Castle

Open Letter to Oshkosh Mayor William Castle:

As I watched the Common Council meeting this evening I was dismayed to see your treatment of citizens – your employers – when their five-minutes was up.

I understand as well as anyone that time limits must be maintained, however, some of these people have rarely, if ever, come before the council previously. And simply because their five minutes had expired is no reason for you to deal with them so coldly, callously and unfeeling. Why is it you cannot simply tell them that their five minutes is about up and ask if they can please wrap things up or if they need an additional minute or two to do so? Previous mayors did that and there were no abuses of those rare time extensions. However, by doing this you could still preserve the right to end a citizen’s statement immediately at the end of the five minutes in those rare cases where someone habitually abuses the privilege.

I think a slight change in your approach to citizens would go along way in making you seem more personable, friendly and caring to the people you were elected to serve. We citizens, after all, as I said earlier, are your employers. You serve at our leisure and this is our government. It would also make the city council as a whole seem more citizen-friendly.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Cheryl Hentz

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 28 2005 @ 06:51 PM MDT
That is a good request. But Mayor Castle also has a problem remembering to turn people's microphones on. Like tonight for example when the city attorney was talking he never turned her light on when she answered a question for Paul Esslinger. He needs to remember to do this so the people at home can hear what is taking place and being said.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 28 2005 @ 09:28 PM MDT
I am watching the rerun of the meeting as we speak. Did Ken Bender really get up and call some people "self righteous assholes?" He should be charged with disorderly conduct. Ken--a personal message to you: if you can't control yourself, stay home.

It's people like Ken Bender who have tightened the screws to the point they are. And I don't have a problem with it. True, some people probably should be given a little extra time to make their points. But the few idiots who get up week after week and rant as they do have caused the problems that exist. Mr Castle wasn't at all inappropriate. He just has to make sure he doesn't show favoritism to the people who don't make fools of themselves.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 28 2005 @ 10:15 PM MDT
Hint: It's precisely because he can't control himself that he goes to council meetings!

I thought exactly the same thing. He should be charged with disorderly conduct. Hey, like it or not it is prime time television, and no other network could get away with it.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:01 AM MDT
I agree that some people are out of control. But I think the point Mrs. Hentz was making is about some of these either people. There was a woman for example who Castle just cut off and told her that her time was up. He did that with a gentleman too who has some serious concerns about his street. Castle could and should be a gentler, kinder mayor, especially in cases like these. And I agree with the other person that he needs to be more cognizant about turning the microphones on. He had that problem when he was mayor the first time eyars ago and he still fails to remember it now. He has to take the audience into account. Just because he can hear these other city officials speaking because they're all sitting up front does not mean everyone else can. The mcrophones are there for a reason and if he can't always remember maybe Frank Tower can help him.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 07:16 AM MDT
I agree Castle needs a more kinder and gentler approach. In the case of the man with the poor street, the man was repeating himself for probably the last 2 minutes. We got the point, the street is of poor quality and he does not want to pay for it. He would like the council to come out and look at it. NEXT!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 08:01 AM MDT
NO WAY. We need a new policy of enforcement based on NO double standards. We have rules, they were voted on by the council, they are there to be enforced. I for one am glad that Mayor Castle is enforcing the rules without regard for what the speaker is saying. This sends a message that this behavior will not be tolerated, whether you are Abraham Lincoln or Ken Bender. As long as he cuts everyone off at their limit, I applaud his actions, regardless of how "citizen friendly" his enforcement of those rules are.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:01 AM MDT
Anyone who knows Castle knows there is no "kinder gentler" in the man. We are talking about someone who is not the brightest bulb on the tree here. He was voted in on the "good ol boy" ticket, so I am not sure why anybody would expect any less from this man.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:41 AM MDT
Geez. You people and that "good 'ol boy" phrase. Come up with a new term for rich, white and educated, please.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 09:58 AM MDT
Good old Oshkosh class warfare. Us vs them, rich vs poor, northside vs southside, as long as this city remains divided we will never get anything done.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 12:03 PM MDT
There are always rules in society, just as there are laws. But as the saying goes, there are exceptions to every rule. And what behavior are you talinig about? The couple people I was referring to when I wrote my open letter were not being disrespectful nor rude. They were making legitimate points about things of concern to them. If you think the way Bill Castle is conducting things is so wonderful, why did we not hear you complaining when previous mayors allowed a little extra time when needed? The fact that you seem to have some problems with certain people who get up at every council meeting and complain seems to be overshadowing your common-sense when it comes to the majority of citizens who do not abuse the rules or privilege of speaking at council meetings.

And when it comes to being citizen friendly, you seem to have forgotten, like so many others, that the citizens and taxpayers are the employers and bosses here; not the other way around.

Cheryl Hentz

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 01:52 PM MDT
But the bosses/citizens should not be allowed to be disrrespectful, obnoxious, or rude. Five minutes is more than enough time to make a point. Make your point and sit down.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 02:11 PM MDT
"There are exceptions to every rule."

But you're forgetting the saying, "One bad apple spoils the bunch." And since there are a couple of bad apples, the rules have been strict, and appropriately enforced. You know for sure if any inch is given, it's the bad apples who are going to scream for their fair share before anyone else will.

Gordon Doule has asked for the extra minute time and time again, only to be refused each time. So when the next John Q Public stands up there, the rules need to be the same for him.

I think instead of a clock, there should be a count down timer at the pulpit. And when your five minutes are up, the mic just shuts off on it's own. Then the only person the speaker could be mad at is himself, and the rules would be fair across the board.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 02:24 PM MDT
Again, there are exceptions to every rule. Anyone in the past has been given a little extra time if they needed it. Moreover, your argument that a point cannot be made in five minutes is not necessarily the case - especially when others ask you questions and so forth. Additionally some issues are more complex than others. These are reasons why others have been given additional time in the past. Instead of the attitude that one bad apple spoils the bunch why don't you try being a little more proactive and thinking in terms of this: people who are respectful and need a little extra time get it, while those who are swearing, name-calling, shouting, etc. have that "perk" taken away from them. Hence the Gordon Doule example.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 02:31 PM MDT
There are always exeptions to the rule. I agree we should bend some in certain situations. But Ken B. and Gordon D. have abused the policy and need to be held to a strict 5 minutes. Very seldom is there a need to speak more than 5 minutes at the end of meeting citizens statements. When speaking during the meeting on a particular new agenda item I can see the need to go over at times.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 02:36 PM MDT
Then how do you justify the extra time given to some, and not others (questions from councilors aside)? That is favoritism.

If no one from city staff has questions for the preacher, five and done! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. (The cliches are getting out of hand!)

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 02:51 PM MDT
It's not showing favoritism at all. Some people have abused it and can not conduct themselves approrpiately. Why not look at past meetings and see how things have been conducted. No one ever complained before s why should this be a problem now to extend a little extra time when appropriate and needed? Stop being such a hardliner!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 03:48 PM MDT
I am a hardliner! Why have rules if you're going to allow someone to break them? And that's not favoritism? Who decides who gets the extra time and who doesn't? Just because you like what someone has to say, or doesn't have to say, that determines who gets extra time? That's what you're proposing.

Again, I say the answer to all of this is a count down timer at the pulpit. When your time is up, sit down! You know what the expectations are: five minutes. Questions about a certain topic from councilors extend that indefinitely. But when there aren't any questions, and your five is up, SIT DOWN! I don't care who you are.

If your topic is so important, call the councilors individually and have it put on the agenda. If not, then you get 5 minutes. 300 seconds. Set your watch. Practice your oration skills. Speak your peace (in 5 minutes!) and SIT DOWN!

Just because you're a tax paying citizen of Oshkosh does not give you free reign to speak ad nauseum to the councilors at the bully pulpit.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 04:02 PM MDT
Ah yes, where to begin trying to deal with those who see nothing but black and white?

Rules set the standard but there are exceptions, as we;ve been hearing. Take for example a court of law. Judges decide in many cases which charges stick and which charges don't. Yes, you are a hardliner! Who decides who gets extra time, you say? The exact same way it has been done in the past: the mayor and a majority of the council. There is no reason to rule thing with an iron fist and with such rigidity that people are afraid to approach the podium. Most are already intimidated enough.

Oh and before you start thinking you know everything, please chew on this. Even with agenda items, citizens are only given five minutes. So your little idea fails because it doesn't apply.

Giving someone a little extra time to finish their presentation to the council is not allowing them to speak ad nauseum. Just because something is not relative to you does not mean it is not important.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 29 2005 @ 04:44 PM MDT
Citizens can speak as much as they want about any topic to any councilor. It's called a telephone. Pick it up and share your concerns with the councilor. Black and white!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 30 2005 @ 07:50 AM MDT
Sounds like your opinion is to do away with citizen statements altogether then. We got it. Not acceptable. Next!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:07 AM MDT
It's so typical for people in this forum to put words in others' mouths. You did it again.

All I am saying is stick to the five minute rule. Stop trying to read more into a post than what is there. I am black and white, remember?

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:35 AM MDT
Nope, just going by what you said. That's why I said it "sounds like." Understand now?

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 07:54 AM MDT
No, it "sounds like" the previous poster just wants the written rules to be enforced without a double standard. Nothing was mentioned even remotely resembling an opinion on citizen statements. The point was simply being made that if you desire to have an in depth conversation with a council member regarding a topic that you think you might not be able to summarize into 5 minutes, give them a call. Thats why their phone numbers are in the Northwestern, and they are usually pretty accessible.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 10:15 AM MDT
But this entire discussion stemmed from the subject citizen statements. So if you are not going to address citizen statements specifically, don't make comments. You people always change your stories when you get caught in something. Then you end up twisting things and not knowing exactly what you're talking about so you try changing the subject. Your spin never ceases to amaze me. Anything to debate the issues with someone, right?

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 12:25 PM MDT
No one changed their story one bit. Go back and read the comments. They have been consistent the whole way through. Nice try tho.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 01 2005 @ 03:39 PM MDT
You have strayed from the point.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 11:40 AM MDT
You keep telling me I have strayed from the point. I have not at all. But since you're so convinced of it, describe for us all, please, how that has occurred.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 11:58 AM MDT
People can read and decide for themselves. They will see exactly what I do. You just want it explained so you can then try explaining how you have not strayed. Bottom line: You just get off on challenging people so you can continue a debate. Typical!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 02:19 PM MDT
The issue was being nice to people, and offering people a little extra time if they run past their 5 minutes. And my argument all along has been 5 and done. Maybe you should look in the mirror. Now that I have explained how my stance has not changed, start explaining yourself.

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 03:21 PM MDT
Your 5 minutes are up and you are done!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 05:05 PM MDT
Exactly!

Open letter to Mayor William Castle
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 02 2005 @ 05:21 PM MDT
Actually we were refering to YOUR 5 minutes being done Mr. Anonymous. Surely you have spent more than 5 minutes trying to convince us of how right you are. So your 5 minutes are up and you need to be quiet now. Hopefully your "microphone" will be turned off if you post any more on this subject.

Thursday, June 16, 2005

Two Items of Concern Regarding Recent City Council Meetings

Contributed by: Anonymous
There are two items that I've heard recently during City Council meetings. First, Brian Bain, in talking about his "5th Tuesday Forum" stated that 5 council members and about 20 citizens attended. How is this NOT a violation of the open meetings laws? Second, when discussions of the $1 ticket surcharge were presented by Mr. Leach, there was talk about the money being given to the Community Foundation (his reasoning was something like...because the city couldn't be trusted to handle that sum of money without spending it on something else). Well, my question is...How can this be done? I know the city can have outside management for it's investments, but the foundation is a non-profit, charitable organization. While they do a great service (this is nothing critical of the Foundation), GIVING them taxpayers money does not seem to be right, or legal. People need to understand that by giving the money to the foundation, that is essentially giving up ownership of those funds. The donor can suggest how the funds will be used, but they are no longer assets of the donor. There are also state statutes that limit the types of investments that cities can invest in. These don't apply to the foundation and their investment allocation would/should be more aggressive than the statutes would allow the city to invest on their own. Then there are the fees that the foundation and their investment managers charge...not exactly cheap. Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a poor idea.

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Two Items of Concern Regarding Recent City Council Meetings
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, June 17 2005 @ 09:48 AM MDT

Great questions!

I believe the answer to your first question (why can 5 council members be at the same meeting without violating open meeting laws,) is I believe that the City Clerk noticed the meeting, therefore allowing all the members of the council to attend if they wished.

The questions you have regarding the Foundation are really good questions, I'd like to hear a legal opinion of these questions.


Two Items of Concern Regarding Recent City Council Meetings
Authored by: admin on Friday, June 17 2005 @ 10:16 AM MDT
I believe City Attorney Warren Kraft has already publicly stated that when the money goes to the foundation - great cause that it is - the foundation's board does have total control over how and when that money is spent. And while they would not likely say no to a request from the city for funds, that possibility does exist under the way the foundation is set up and operates. To "park" any surcharge funds with the foundation is a bad idea for this reason alone, I believe.

As I understand it and as David Leach Jr. suggested, the $1 per ticket surcharge would go toward future maintenance and upkeep of the amphitheater, as well as perhaps some future additions or improvements, etc. Since this is in a city park it, the maintenance of it is city responsibility. Therefore the sensible and most financially prudent decision would be to keep the money in city coffers and earmark it specifically for the amphitheater, if that is possible.

But one way or the other, if the city has the responsibility for maintaining the facility, then the city also has the responsibility of maintaining the money.

Our city council has previously misplaced responsibility of doling out monies for projects (i.e. Community Development Block Grant monies are now allocated based on recommendations from the foundation. This is wrong. The money is given to the city and the city needs to review disbursement requests and then make the final decision.) Let's hope this council doesn't abdicate its responsibility again by shifting it to the foundation.

I suspect we will hear a similar message from the city attorney when this item is discussed in July.

- Cheryl Hentz

Two Items of Concern Regarding Recent City Council Meetings
Authored by: fmc6338 on Friday, June 17 2005 @ 03:03 PM MDT
You wrote: “Our city council has previously misplaced responsibility of doling out monies for projects (i.e. Community Development Block Grant monies are now allocated based on recommendations from the foundation. This is wrong. The money is given to the city and the city needs to review disbursement requests and then make the final decision.) Let's hope this council doesn't abdicate its responsibility again by shifting it to the foundation”.

While local business leaders continue to tout market principles they continue to suck on the teat of government. I believe that there is no real power with the city council, most members of the council are hoping to further their business careers and will follow whatever people like Leach want. David Leach has proven that he knows nothing of business and commitment to the community by coldheartedly selling off Leach in 2002, yet rather than a pariah he is still listened to by our city leaders. If our city continues to elect people with business acumen then we deserve the democracy we get.
---
War Is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Wednesday, June 08, 2005

No place for teens to go

Contributed by: Anonymous
Kids today getinto a lot of trouble. I no u can blame this on a lot of things but i fell it is because they have no were to go and talk. So the resort 2 bad places. And those places arent safe for kids to go. I fell that if there was a safe and clean place for teens to go there would be less accedents and other things. If only our town would bulid i tiny spot for teens to go in the summer and after school then we would have a better town. And also a much safer town. Just think about it. I have polled 20 people not only teens but their parnets as well and everyone thinks it would be a good idea if they/thier kids could go some were. Please consider this.

[Editor's note: A few people have felt compelled to write nasty responses to the individual posting the above note, simply because of their spelling and grammar. I have removed those posts because they are inappropriate. Simply because someone may be very young or because a person may not have had the same educational advantages as others, does not mean that person does not have good ideas, or should not be listened to or be treated with respect. Similar replies in the future will also be removed.]

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

No place for teens to go
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 08 2005 @ 09:03 PM MDT
Who is gonna pay for this?

No place for teens to go
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 09 2005 @ 06:56 AM MDT
This is something that has been discussed before. Isn't the Boy's and Girls' Club being used for teens? I not saying we shouldn't have outlets, however Green Bay has had serious problems with certain teens that ruin things for all with fights , weapons etc. Can you maybe address how this could be handled so that parents and other teens would feel comfortable going to other venues for teens?

No place for teens to go
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 09 2005 @ 08:47 PM MDT
Inner Sun Yoga Studio offers yoga classes for ages 12 and up on Mon./Wed. at 5:30 p.m. and Sat. 9:30 a.m. We have a student rate of $4.00 for these classes. We also offer many other classes for ages 15 and up. Consider booking a Yoga Party! Yoga is a great way for teens to enhance athletic performance and reduce stress. Please call 651-1279 for more information.

No place for teens to go
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, June 09 2005 @ 12:28 PM MDT
Actually the Boys and Girls Club of Oshkosh already offers a safe and fun
environment for teens in the summer and afterschool. It is located on East
Parkway ave and Broad st, by the railroad track. The Club has moved into
a renovation of its current Teen Center to make it more roomy and
current.

Over the summer the Club opens at 9:00am and closes at 5;30 on the
weekdays. During the school year the Club is open from 2:30 -8:30.
Over the summer there are tons activitie going on.

If you have any questions about what the Boys and Girls Club of Oshkosh
offers the community, please call 233-1414 or stop down for a tour.

Bob Poeschl

Thursday, June 02, 2005

Leach Company slaps workers in the face

[Eye on Oshkosh received the following editorial today from a former Leach Company worker and are pleased to publish it here with the author's permission]

As I read the May 2005 Northwestern Commemorative edition - Unwrapping Leach Amphitheater - I had mixed emotions. This new park will probably be a positive addition to the city of Oshkosh. From what I've heard and read, it is a beautiful facility.

I, along with most former Leach Company employees, both union and management, strongly disagree with the naming of this facility. For all of us who worked for the Leach Company., the Leach name will always be remembered for the jobs and livelihoods that were provided for a very hard working, dedicated group of people. This company was Dave Leach Sr.'s. Legacy. We will always be grateful to him for the way he provided and stood by his workforce.

We also respect Phyllis Leach's contributions to this community in providing for cancer patients along with other charitable causes.

Unfortunately, for those of us who put most of our lives into working for the Leach Co., when Dave Sr. passed away, our lives were changed. We all respected him and I was not surprised to see so many workers, union and management, attend his funeral. He earned that respect by standing behind those of us who worked for him.

The next Leach generation brought new ideas and changes into the plant. "Team Concept," a fancy phrase that tricks one into believing all employees have a say in how the plant operates, is one example. We endured these changes although costly mistakes were made by upper management decisions. We bargained a concessional contract, providing Leach Co. the opportunity to keep the doors open and move from operating in the red to operating in the black. We were told if we helped turn the company around, we would all be rewarded and the concessions would be paid back over time. This pay back never occurred. The Leach family decided to sell the company, leaving the employees in the dark.

Some former employees have found new jobs and some are returning to school. What concerns me is what will happen to those who fall through the cracks. It seems as though we have already been forgotten by our community and the Leach family. The family has invested money, not the major portion, to this Amphitheater. Most former Leach employees will never frequent this facility, because the naming of it is a slap in our face. We will always wonder why the Leach family would not invest money into the people that worked so very hard for them for so many years.

It is our hope that in the near future, the Leach family will step forward and ask that this Amphitheater be renamed to something more appropriate such as the Riverfront Amphitheater. For most of us who spent our prime years working for the Leach family, a name change would be deeply appreciated. The current name will only detract from the legacy Dave Leach Sr. took with him.

For those who never worked in a factory, I want you to know that a shop floor employee is given a punch clock number, which is their identification. I was going to include my clock number with my name at the end of this commentary, but I chose not to. Apparently, after Dave's passing, we became only numbers. By not including my clock number, the Leach family can now experience what it's like to be left in the dark. Without the clock number, they cannot identify the worker.

Darel W.Ader, president
UAW Local 1108
Former Leach employee

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, June 03 2005 @ 12:51 PM MDT
Yes, concessions were made by the union. They had to just to keep the doors open. But the bottom line is if the business does not generate enough profit it will close. Would you operate a business if it was in the red, or broke even? No, you sell or close it.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, June 03 2005 @ 01:36 PM MDT
Leach was still profitable with it's Oshkosh location.

Corporations need to learn the balance fair profits with community service and accountability.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, June 03 2005 @ 02:14 PM MDT
Just wondering, since you have inside info, just how "profitable" were they?

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, June 04 2005 @ 12:54 AM MDT
Frank mccandless wrote:
Federal Signal claims it was consolidating its business. The leach family sold out in 2002. Leach leaving had everything to do with greed. Note revenue of parent company in 2004.

Federal Signal Corporation Acquires Leach Company
September 30, 2002
Federal Signal Corporation announced the completion of its acquisition of Leach Company in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
Financial Highlights (In USD as of 12/31/2004)
Total Revenue 1,139,000,000
EBITDA 58,100,000
Net Income (2,300,000)
Total Assets 1,121,700,000
Current Assets 414,200,000
Total Liabilities 713,200,000
Current Liabilities 229,700,000
Long Term Debt 394,100,000
Stockholders' Equity 412,700,000



Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Copyright 2005 The Post-Crescent
The Post-Crescent

April 8, 2005, Friday

“Last June, Federal Signal said it was consolidating garbage truck manufacturing operations at Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada, leading to the elimination of 122 jobs.”

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 08:42 PM MDT
Accountability to who? Stock holders yes. This is about money. Corporations are in business to make money. It is called capitalism.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, June 04 2005 @ 01:40 AM MDT
“But the bottom line is if the business does not generate enough profit it will close. Would you operate a business if it was in the red, or broke even? No, you sell or close it”.

You are dead wrong. This type of thinking only applies to small business of less than 500 people, and then most business fail not because of workers but management. Define what you mean by broke, define loosing money, define not enough profit. For example, the ratio of managers to production workers has been steadily climbing in the last 100 years, 1810 10/100 1935,25/100 1946 36/100 1999 56/100. In 1999 the average large corporation in America had 56 paper pushers to every 100-production workers. It is the production workers who create wealth not managers. Yet when a company wants to cut cost claiming foreign competition it will cut production Workers rather than management. In the U.S If it is the wages of production workers that puts companies at a competitive disadvantage, then explain to me how the Germans and Japanese destroyed our machine tool industry while paying their workers on average of 35 dollars an hour. Here in the U.S the machine tool industry was paying an average of 17-18 dollars an hour and crying how the Germans and Japanese are pummeling them. This resulted in America once a leader in machine tools, now being stuck in last place and our companies need to import most of the machinery they use. The responsibility for this disgrace lies firmly within the greed and shortsightedness of American management. In the world economy this bottom line bullshit of yours is at the heart of our country loosing its competitive edge. Through the hard work of Labor Unions, and other working people we enjoyed for a short time great wages and other benefits that allowed one person to support a family. Depending on your age it was you or your parents that enjoyed such good workings conditions. These people never once considered how many people bled and faught to give them the lifestyle they enjoy, and as long as they have their selfish buts covered screw everyone else including future generations. It is long overdue to stop thinking of just the bottom line and begin to think of who really makes profits for companies.
frank mccandless


Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, June 04 2005 @ 08:34 AM MDT
The machine tool industry grew. The machine tool industry unionized. Machine tool quality suffered. Machine tool production moved offshore. Domestic machine tool industry is a shadow of it's former self.

Auto industry grows. Auto industry unionizes. Auto quality goes down the tubes. Auto industry largely moves offshore. Auto industry is nowhere near the giant it once was.

Textile industry unionizes. Same thing happens.

Electronics industry unionizes. Same thing happens.

Anybody see a common thread as to what happens when an industry unionizes? Jobs are "protected", productivity stagnates, quality goes down, jobs leave. It's pretty simple, it repeats eveywhere unions happens, yet people still think they are a good idea...

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 05 2005 @ 12:59 PM MDT
you must be one of these internet trolls, making claims without any facts to back them up. This thread is not Fox News.
frank mccandless

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 05 2005 @ 05:44 PM MDT
Let me guess, you happen to be one of the silver spooners. You know the guys and gals that have never had to scrap for anything, because everything you have was and is handed to you by a rich relative.

You obviously have no understanding of why or how unions began, what blood shed and heartache were to be had. You only need to look at our own local history to see how and why unions were and are so important.

The truth is that greed of corporations and legilation drove many jobs overseas or as you put it off shore, these very companies get tax break from our own government thus making "the screwing" of the American public and the American worker far more profitable. Yet these sam corporations and their CEO's live the the USA and take all that is offered here as their own playground. You and they should be ashamed of your thought, words and evil deeds.

One day you will see that you, not the workers of America destoyed the strentgh and fiber of what she once stood for. A better life for all willing to work, not those that prostitue your wares to other countries for ill got and gain (short term of course) just look at the trade deficit ....your a real brain trust!

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 05 2005 @ 05:48 PM MDT
"labor should have the right to organize into unions, just as capital organizes into corporations"

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 05 2005 @ 06:01 PM MDT
Yes, by all means organize. But the days of $20.00 per hour, top of the line health insurance and great pension to sit and watch a machine run are over. The unions need to realize this. In a world economy our companies can not compete. When GM is paying out more retirement benefits than the corporation is worth something is wrong.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 01:49 AM MDT
Very good point, and I recommend the book, after capitalism from manageialism to workplace democracy by Seymour Melman.
In Melmans’ book he uses the loss of our machine tool industry to illustrate what is at the heart of the decline of our manufacturing base. Managers and government would like us to believe that it is wages of workers that cause a company to loose its competitive edge, but this line of reasoning is false. Although there are many reasons for a company to loose its competitive edge, wages of workers is dead last. For example Melman writes by 1982 many researchers have found that direct labor cost accounts for only 10% of total manufacturing. By direct labor we mean wages paid to the worker actually making the product. Direct labor cost does not include, maintenance, insurance, advertising, management, accounting or any other “indirect” cost. If direct labor only accounts for 10% of total manufacturing, why has management focused 75% of its efforts on controlling just 10% of cost? Plus, no one has yet to explain to me how Japan and Germany were able to destroy or machine tool industry, and yet pay their workers between 24 and 35 bucks and hour while we were paying 11 to 19 bucks an hour.

PS:
You wrote: “When GM is paying out more retirement benefits than the corporation is worth something is wrong.”
Workers have paid into GM’s pension plan and deserve to get whets coming to them. GM has claimed its pension assets as profit rather than innovating. GM has also moved more heavily into financing and military contracts rather than innovating. GM has been producing gas guzzling SUV’s rather than innovating. It is the managers of GM that are running the company into the ground not the cost of labor. To close how long do you think workers in the third world are going to put up with slave wages? I give it 10 years and the so-called great Chinese economy will crumble because of social unrest.

Frank Mccandless

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 05 2005 @ 05:31 PM MDT
If I were "broke" and the business was doing so poorly, yes I agree you would have to close it...however, then I wouldn't build an ampitheater in my name that the overall community pays the lion share of, when no one is now working because I was forced to close the very plant that employed so many of the locals...the same locals that are now going to be TAXED for this entertainment arena they had no say in!!

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 01:56 AM MDT
Rocken Roll I am glad there are others who are not afraid to call it like they see it.
frank mccandless

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 06:17 AM MDT
Forced? Only in Oshkosh can you be accused of wrong doing when you donate over 1 million dollars. Aren't the cobblestoners wonderful people. The Leach family took the risk when they started their company. The deserved the wealth they accumulated over many decades. When the business went bad they sold out. They then donated the Amphitheatre as a thank you to the city. Seems like a great gesture, unless your a bitter cobblestoner.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 07:30 AM MDT
Only in your mind and the city of Oshkosh does a gift cost the taxpayers millions of dollars, and we're not done spending money yet, mind you. If the Leach family wanted to show its appreciation, why didn't it start with its own employees? It is the employees who helped make that family as rich as they were. Once again, the so-called visionaries and progressives have things slightly altered and skewed. Why is it that anytime people question the manner in whcih something is done or if they believe a smarter, more fair way of doing something exists, they are called cobblestoners and negative? Why don't you come down from the mount and live in the real world for a change? While you're at it, close your mouth and open your ears to what those with different ideas are actually saying. You might just be surprised at what you hear.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 08:05 AM MDT
This hate for corporations in Oshkosh is why we have so few left here. Cut the us against them crap. Who do you think you are to tell companies or the people who own them what to do with their money? They took the risk and earned the profits. Your socialist attitudes are disgusting.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 09:30 AM MDT
If you read Mr. Aider's letter closely - he does not speak out against the amphitheater project - just it's naming.

His quote - "I had mixed emotions. This new park will probably be a positive addition to the city of Oshkosh. From what I've heard and read, it is a beautiful facility."

This is not a pro or anti coblestoner letter. It is a statement on the naming. It should not be grabbed onto by either group for political gain.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: admin on Monday, June 06 2005 @ 10:25 AM MDT
Do you actually believe that if a company is making as much money as it can in a community it is going to relocate because the people in the community don't like it? That argument is absolutely ridiculous.

Moreover, every story that has been published about businesses leaving Oshkosh has contained quotes about why they were leaving and none spoke of hatred from the community. Instead they usually, if not always, talked about how the companies could make more money by moving elsewhere. The exodus of businesses from Oshkosh is about money, not people or personalities. So please stop blaming people or their anger for reasons why companies leave.

But if you want to talk about anger, the people who have been displaced by companies leaving for bigger bucks certainly have a reason to be angry. In the case of the Leach Company, I think those reasons were well-stated in the original letter on this site.

- Cheryl Hentz

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 12 2005 @ 02:47 PM MDT
Just thought I would chime in-my husband was one of the workers at Leach who lost his job after 28 years. I feel also that the Leach ampitheater is a slap to the Leach workers. It feels insulting to these guys, who put their entire lives in that plant to spend all that money on a entertainment venue, when that same money reinvested in the company may have kept those jobs. Where was Phyllis when the men who put that money in her pocket needed her?

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 12 2005 @ 04:23 PM MDT
She was busy with son David building mnuments unto themselves rather than helping maintain the legacy of her former husband or building one of her own.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 12 2005 @ 08:18 PM MDT
The Leach family took the financial risk so they are entitled to the rewards. This is America. When the company was not profitable they got out. So you are saying they should take the profits they made over the years and divide them up and give them to the workers? I hope you are kidding. I am sure all of you would do that if you owned a business that went bad. Sure you would!

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 12 2005 @ 08:38 PM MDT
They are welcome to have any rewards they want. But they held their rewards hostage in order to get the city to do a bunch of extras in Riverside Park. They do not have that right (except when the FAB 5 give it to them) nor should they be applauded for gifts that came with strings attached. That's part of the problem with having too much money. If they truly care about the city and providing quality of life for her people, they ought to make donations to food pantries, domestic abuse shelters, build some low income housing, help to make sure people who can't afford insurance have some and actually make a difference for people much less fortunate than themselves. Then we can all applaud their efforts and generosity. But instead they have helped indebt an entire community of people, many of whom are either just getting by or out of work altogether.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 07:25 AM MDT
Wrong again. The Amphitheatre is a gift that will keep giving for years and years. Possibly contributing millions of dollars to our economy each year.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 08:18 AM MDT
No, YOU are wrong. Gifts don't cost the recipients anything. What will be giving for years and years is the hardworking, many unemployed peple of Oshkosh called taxpyers. We have to pay for this so-called gift. Why can't you be honest and call it what it is: a tax writeoff for the Leachs and a tax burden for us.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 08:41 AM MDT
Hostage? No one made the city go the extra yard to make this a first class facility. Thank god they did. Now we can reep the cash it will bring to this city for decades. All that for a small tax increase. A no brainer. For decades the Leach family gave us jobs. When the ride came to an end they gave us an amphitheatre to build our downtown around. They should be thanked.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 08:51 AM MDT
The city was told that if these other things weren't done right away the "gift" wuld be taken back. If you doubt the accuracy of that go back and look at the City Council workshop when this issue first was "discussed." That was the message from Jackson Kinney our development director for the city.

As to the small amount you believe it is costing us, it may be a small amount to you, but there are many seniors and unemployed people who cannot afford to continue paying for this that and the other. Your attitude smacks of smugness and financial superiority.

Finally as to whether or not the "gift" will keep on giving. That is pure speculation on your part. It will keep giving to PMI, that's for sure. But the message we hear from the city is economic development is good because it helps keeps taxes low and even provides tax relief. When was the last time your tax bill went DOWN? Or even remained at the same level? To be fair we can look at just the city's portion. Mine and those of most people I know have not. Also, we don't know that this "gift" will benefit the city for years to come. It may be mismanaged like so many other things and end up being a big white elephant in the future.

Beautiful as it, we just don't know. That includes YOU.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 09:15 AM MDT
Just think how much your taxes would have went up without development. This city was close to becoming the armpit of Wisconsin. Thankfully people have come to their senses and started to invest in the city with both public and private dollars before it was too late. We have alot of potential with the river. It is time we cash in on it. Corner bars and bowling alleys will only get you so far.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 09:31 AM MDT
We're not talking about ALL development. We are talking about some development, especially this bandshell. The jury is still out on this. But without it maybe we could have done some development that would actually pay decent jobs or helped with other humane causes. But apparently you would rather bury your head in the sand when it comes to things like indigency, lack of the ability to afford proper health care, affordable housing, employment and so forth. Let's just build things like a bandshell where we can celebrate. Your kind of people and people like me seem to have different definitions of quality of life and things that are truly important in life.

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 14 2005 @ 08:23 AM MDT
While having the discussion about taxes going up or down, no one has spoken about the fact that this River front property was again taken off the tax rolls once the city purchased it from WPS! No one has talked about the fact that if the city had played it's cards right this property (contaminated) could have been given to the city. And if not to the city, then sold to a developer for proper development in keeping with the contamination caps. Thus actually creating TAX BASE. You know that thing that folks keep talking about (especially folks like Brian Bain and his groupies) but seldom are able to make happen because they lack the strength and will to push for what this city really needs!

Leach Company slaps workers in the face
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, June 12 2005 @ 09:17 PM MDT
If your husband worked there for 28 years, that means he received roughly $17,000 cash in a lump sum severance package. In addition to that, he received 2 YEARS of paid educational benefits should he choose to go that route, as well as unemployment benefits that extend beyond what any "regularly laid off person" would get.

Other people at other companies don't get anything when they get laid off. What makes you think you are entitled to any of the above listed extras, when other people get nothing? That's a slap in the face to other workers!

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, June 13 2005 @ 02:53 PM MDT
Speaking of things being closed, it was our understanding based on what city leaders said, that when there are no events at the amphitheater, the grounds were to be open to the public and available for use. Was down there the other day and things were locked up tighter than a drum. I can understand the building itself being locked up but what about the grounds and those bathrooms we've heard so much about? If I'm paying for them I want access. What about it city of Oshkosh? Is this or is it not a city park open to the public?

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 14 2005 @ 08:27 AM MDT
Great question, did you ever get an answer? Where is the media on this issue. Their right there screaming the prasies of this thing, but when the paying public has a real question, where are their investigative reports seeking these answers?!

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 14 2005 @ 08:54 AM MDT
There have been NO answers to date on this issue. The media seems to either have no answers or is playing ostrich on this issue too. Keep your head buried and pretend the problem doesn't exist. Then maybe it will actually go away. Sure, that's right!

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 14 2005 @ 03:51 PM MDT
I too have been down to Riverside Park and was dismayed to see the grounds all closed off to the public. This is not what is supposed to be happening. Does anyone know what the deal is here?

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 14 2005 @ 07:55 PM MDT
It may be because it was not oficially designated as a park yet. Tonight the council made that designation.

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, June 15 2005 @ 07:42 AM MDT
Instead of posting snide and suspicious emails on a relatively lightly travelled website, perhaps a call to City Hall might answer your question?

I know, that would defeat many of your opportunities to infer conspiracy theories about the hated Leach Amphitheater, but it might be a constructive method of problem solving. Sorry to ruin your fun.

Why Is The Amphitheater Closed To The Public??
Authored by: admin on Wednesday, June 15 2005 @ 08:31 AM MDT
First, speaking of snide comments, I would respectfully suggest to you that your comment is certainly one that is snide in nature.

Second, this is a type of discussion board frequented by many folks from city hall and our various elected officials. Therefore if visitors here want to post a question about something going on, that is their option to do so, though I agree a call to city hall would also usually get them the answer they were looking for. (Although I have been told by some folks that their calls are not always returned by folks at city hall.)

Third, your comment about this site being lightly travelled is subjective at best and certainly open to interpretation. Again and for the record, this site is frequented by many people who DO have answers, much like the Bryan Bain Fifth Tuesday Forums. Those events are certainly not heavily attended and I have more traffic here than his events, yet we are told we should attend his forums and learn the answers to our questions. The same must then be said about this site or any other discussion board which is monitored, at least in part, by people who are in the know.

Finally, I would encourage people to post questions here as well as making a call to city hall. When people stop me in public to seek help in getting things done or having questions answered, I always try to get answers for them. I will do the same when questions are posted here. No need for people to stop asking questions just because some individual posts a snotty comment trying to discourage you from doing so.
- Cheryl Hentz